"Czechoslovakia '38-What If They'd Fought?"

[Serus]

to Serus: STUFF!!
Teschin area were part of Poland in 1918. At 1920 was sized by Czech Army and from 28.7. 1920 it was part of Czechoslovakia. This area (865 km2, 231.784 people) were occupy by Polish army from 1.-11.10. 1938. During Polish campaign the Teschin area were sized by German army and from 12.10.1939 it became part of Deutsches Reich. At May 1945 the Teschin area became part of new Czechoslovakia.
http://www.kc-cieszyn.pl/zaolzie1938/zaolzie.htm

Ooops - im sorry - im strongy ashamed, i dont know how i could make this mistake, i knew it of curse before... damn i made an idiot of myself ... ... i must be more careful when posting about "obvious" things, the mind makes weird tricks... or better just shut up you are right... The only thing i can say on my defense is that im not a revisionist of any kind, it was just my stupidity (i knew it when i was 16 years old, i knew it when i was 20 and 24... i dont know how i could made such mistake...and to post it...)

[Michal Gelbic]

Outer and inner enemy forces against Czechoslovakia in Spetember 1938:
1) Germany
2) Hungary
3) Poland
4) 99% sudet-german minority on own territory (3,5 mil. from 13,5 mil of whole Czechoslovak citizens)
5) Slovak nationalists in Slovakia
6) Ukrainian nationalists in Ruthenia (Subcarpathia)

Our military command said, that we can fight only on two sides (with Germany and Hungary), but not also with Poland. Rumania (in that time only ally) threatened Hungary, so in fact Cs. army would fought in early only with Germany. Therefore prezident Benes sent to Poland offer, that Czechoslovakia is prepared to surrender disputable Tesin territory, if Poland give guarantee that will not attack Czechoslovakia. But polish prime ministr rejected...

[TRose]

One thing to remember , as unprepared as the western allies where in 1939, they where even worse off in 1938. Both the French and British Airforce where much smaller then Germany even if you add the Czech airforce and they had nothing that even came close to the BF 109 in production yet. During the time between the Czech crisis and the invasion of Poland both France and the U.K had their arms industry going at full blast and even then it was not enough to save France and Poland. Had they gone to war in 38 the result would have been a defeated France and Czechoslovakia and perhaps a neutral Poland to act as a buffer between the Soviet Union and Germany

[Molobo]

Poland's policy was pro-German. They used the crisis to extort territory from the Czechs.

This policy wasn't pro-German, but pro-polish, they regained territory taken by Czechs in Polish-Bolshevik war, that was inhabited by Poles, thus denying German possesion and rule over Polish land and people.Czech Legion was being formed in Poland later.

[glenn239]

This policy wasn't pro-German, but pro-polish, they regained territory taken by Czechs in Polish-Bolshevik war, that was inhabited by Poles, thus denying German possession and rule over Polish land and people.Czech Legion was being formed in Poland later.

Any policy pursued by any nation of its own free will should be to promote national interests. Poland’s 1938 meddling against the Czechs was no exception. Not withstanding a basic drive to self-promotion, it is possible to describe any nation's policies in a greater context, and given the choices made in Warsaw that summer, no other possible description (with regards to Germany) can be assigned to Poland’s save that it was pro-German.

One thing to remember , as unprepared as the western allies where in 1939, they where even worse off in 1938. Both the French and British Airforce where much smaller then Germany even if you add the Czech airforce and they had nothing that even came close to the BF 109 in production yet.

One great imponderable I’ve always wondered about is whether Germany was really in such a weak position in 1938 as has been portrayed in virtually any Western discussion of the Munich Crisis. This supposition is necessary – otherwise Hitler compromised when he did not have to. Can you provide general OOB information to flesh out your claim?

[TRose]

Ok here are the numbers for Airforces
In 1938 the Royal Air Force had about 900 aircraft
The French air Force had 1450
This gave the Allies about 2350 Aircraft total The vast majority except for a few of the later British Aircraft(Hurricanes where just starting to go in service) older models much inferior to German ones
Germany had 2850 combat aircraft Almost all newer models then the Allied ones
In 1939
The numbers where
the Royal Airforce had increased to 1900 Aircraft(
The French Air Force increased to 1800
For a total of 3700 Aircraft
The German Air Force had increased mean while to 3600 Aircraft
the German aircraft where still better and newer over all but the not by as much as the Spitfires and th eFrench D520 where now starting to go in service along with other new models
Tank production had also been increase , for example in Britian in 1938 almost all Tanks where light Tanks Mark 1-VI while in 1939 the British had formed their first Armored division and new Cruiser tanks the the soon to be famous Maltilda where now avaiilble
the information come dirty little secrets of WWII page 46( Nice little trivia book)

[Michal Gelbic]

Czechoslovakia was oriented to France, USSR, Rumunia, Jugoslavia. Polish naturaly looking for partners afraid from USSR and they found them in Germany, even they knew that its not ideal variant. They wanted build up central european space with Hungary, but Czechoslovakia (in particular Ruthenia) stay between them. Polish passages of arms against Czechoslovak teritorry with Hungarian cooperation before occupation in March 1939 and also support of Slovak separatists from Polish, Hungarian and Sudet-German sides are known.

It was not only Tesin territory which complicated relationship between Poland and Czechoslovakia. It were also some territory in Northern Slovakia, than signed military pact with USSR (natural enemy of Poland) and also historical experiences from WWI, when Poles fought again Russians, but Czechs and Slovaks on contrary with Russians against Austro-Hungarian and German units. Naturaly from Polish prime minister Beck who hated Czechs from legionary period, president Benes could not expect some neutral stand-point in 1939.

TO Molobo: yes, Czech and Slovak legion was organized in Poland, but not with support of Polish administration. Only later Poles changed own opinion - but it was too late for Poland and Czechoslovaks troops as well. New base legion found in USSR.

I think, that French or british airplanes were not what prezident Benes wait for. He wanted as minimum moral support. When also Soviets did not respond to his appeal, he realized that Czechoslovakia is alone.

Michal

Czechoslovak military units in USSR (1942-1945)
http://www.czechpatriots.com/csmu

[Mitoko]

Teschin area were part of Poland in 1918. At 1920 was sized by Czech Army and from 28.7. 1920 it was part of Czechoslovakia. This area (865 km2, 231.784 people) were occupy by Polish army from 1.-11.10. 1938.

Do You like to falsify history ??

In 05.11.1918 local goverments: polish Rada Narodowa Ksiestwa Cieszynskiego and czechs Cesky Narodní Vybor pro Slezsko made agreegment of the rules of partition this teritory (2282 km2 with 434'000 people - main nationality: polish - 52,6%, german - 17,6%, czechs - 26,7%). To Poland have to go 76% of this teritory where polish nationality declared 3/4 of the people.

But in 26.01.1919 Czech Army (16'000 man) attacked Slask Cieszynski (Teschin). Polish forces on this area it was only 1'500 man (mainly policeman) because it was time of polish-russian war. Czech forces were stopped on Wisla River line.

In 03.02.1919 Czech goverment agreed to make plebiscite - but when Red Army attack towards Warsaw Czech foreign minister Benesz forcedly to partition this teritory:
- Czech take 1280 km2 with 295'000 man (48,6% Polish, 11,3% German, near 39% Czech and some other nations)
- on Poland stay only 43,9% teritory - 1002 km2 with 139'000 man (61% Polish, 31% German and 1,4% Czech).
Than it's clear why Czech attacked and used critical polish war situation to escape from plebiscite - because they had to fail it.

Ententa and Polish goverment had to agree but was main term - Czech neutrality in polish-russian war and acceptance for the transports with West Europe weapons for fighting Polish Army.

Of course Czech this agreegment broke too - they blocked transports for Poland. Maybe they wanted to Red Army have to go to German and made there revolution.

Czech persecutions polish nations on this terittory in the next years it's the other story. Many of the polish population have to escaped.

Then in 1938 Polish goverment made the same thing - declared that Poland help Czech if the German attacked if Czech give away part of territory where polish population was majority.
When German went for Czech teritory Polish goverment decided to take Zaolzie because it was possible that German take all Czech.

Summary
Of course Polish decision in 1938 wasn't specially good - but:
- we must remember about facts from 1919-20 which Glynwed falsified
- The terms "polish occupation" is false - because we take back territory which we lost as a result of Czech attack and broke pacts

[soldat_m56]

What about Hungary's role? They used the crisis to seize parts of southern Slovakia and Ruthenia. It is possible they could have been drawn into the war as well.

[Tim Smith]

New scenario by Roddoss72 split off into its own thread.

[Panzer Leader]

The Czech army along with its air fore was indeed a tough foe on the battlefield in addition to being well equipped the Czech forces were aloso well led ,and high morale among their forces. They very well could have turned Czechslovakia into Germanys Vietnam.

[Epaminondas]

Remember about what, a third to a half of the modern tanks in the german inventory were czech built Pz 35ts and 38ts [which were about equal to a PzIII at that time] from 1939-1941. [excluding Pz I and II from modern inventory]

With out those tanks, the german panzer forces would have been a hollow shell compared to what they were.

And those czech tanks would have been a creditable threat to the German forces.

---

sounds like an interest campaign to flesh out for wargaming scenarios/campaign

[Glynwed]

- we must remember about facts from 1919-20 which Glynwed falsified

Well, what I falsified? As you can se, under my very shord and mostly only summarizing article, there is a link to detail history of this problem / situation or what you like to call it: http://www.kc-cieszyn.pl/zaolzie1938/zaolzie.htm

At the fist, you have some problems with word occupation in 1938. Well, I can say liberation, seizing, or what ever, as I can use the same words for example seizing the Teschin area by Czechs in 1920, Sudetenland and Memenland by Germans in 1938 or east Poland by Soviets in 1939. The result is still the same....armed forces crossed the borders of another state.

At the second, you wrote that I falsified the years 1919-1920. What´s the point of this notation?

[Delwin]

To be fair: using the word "seize" in one moment and the word "occupy" in the other is a little bit unfair... Also forgetting about the way Czechoslovakia got the Tschechin in 1920 is also not very fair. We made not very wise move enforcing this issue in 1938 - it would not give us much (except for crossing one of two the existing raillines to Slovakia) but only the label of German's accomplice...

[Anne G,]

The best time to confront Hitler would have been March 1936, over the Rhineland, but the British and French people just didn't care at that time and had virtually no idea what Hitler and the Nazis were all about.

Maybe militarily, but at that time Hitler had "moral right"in his side even in the eyes of most other nations as Rhineland was a part of Germany.

Czechoslovakia October 1938 would have been the next best option. Hitler really wanted a war with Czechoslovakia (alone, without Allied support). If the Allies had backed the Czechs to the hilt, Hitler may have backed down.

I agee. Plus just then was the best possibility that the German army would have tried to throw Hitler from the power.

However, even then Hitler could base his claim on the nationality principle. President Wilson's 14 points guaranteed that the fronties are made acroos the nationality, in the Versailles treaty this was allowed to many other states but denied from Germany. (I don't necessarily agree with the principle if it causes a war, but I want to show how it caused a sense of unjustice among the Germans.)

Militarily, it was really good chance. Germany would have needed almost all his divisions confronting Czeckoslovakia, so it would have created a favorable situation in the French frontier though the French started armament much too late and the Bristish needed their army and navy also in other places around the world. (Of course, also Soviet Union had promised to help Czezkoslavia but I leave it now away from this scenario.)

Yet, it wasn't mainly Chamberlain's fault it came to nothing. The peoples of democratic counties don't want to go to war if they doen't feel it is morally right and absolutely necessary. That spirit lacked in September 1938.

Yet, let us assume that the British and French would have gone to war in 1939 and won Hitler. Would they have labeled imperialistic powers who have their own imperiums around the world but coundn't let the Germans unite? Or, if the German army threw Hitler from the power, could they persuade the German nation that this was the right way to prevent the worst of misfortunes?