What if : Japan

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 22 Jun 2002 18:06

IAR80 wrote: IRON: Of course, for tanks and airplanes, mainly.

Through IRON I meant iron ore, pig iron, steel, scrap metal and other prime materials Japan needed for the war and got from the USA. Japan imported most of the war materials it needed. This is why it needed to concentrate on occupying the resource rich areas in the south Pacific and SE Asia. During a war with the SU, they would have consumed large amounts of ammunitions, fuel, spare parts, lost equipment, soldiers etc. These in turn would consume resources they badly needed for a war with the US, which they knew they stood little chance of winning, especially if they waited too much.

IAR80 wrote: OIL: Sure, such a campaign would require fuel, but a campaign in the Far East would use up less fuel than a trip to the Hawaii and back of a whole carrier battlegroup. Much less, I dare to say.

You must be joking!

IAR80 wrote: What I would like to underline is that such a campaign would not at all be a costly gamble like the one started in Dec 1941, this is my opinion, although I will be documenting myself further.

Yes, it would, since it will put the Japanese in a worse starting position than they actually had, this leading to even less chances of success.

IAR80 wrote: What would the japanese gain?
Again, in the short term, nothing.

What would they loose? Everything!

IAR80 wrote: But neither would the Pearl Harbour attack, or the campaign in the Philipines, or the seizing of the Dutch Indies be affected in any significant way, even though there would be the very real posibility of the whole japanese armed forces running on fumes.

You say that the campaign against the US wouldn’t be affected and then you say that there was the real possibility of defeat? Make up your mind already!

IAR80 wrote: In the long term, with Russia and UK defeated, seizing most of southern Asia and also forcing China into surrender, by 1942 Japan would stand some chance of resisting the US, at least survive until Hitler would offer some kind of help.

OK, what just happened? When did the UK loose the war. I thought that only Russia would loose it in 1941. Why also the UK?

Another thing would be: what on Earth can Hitler do to assist Japan?!

Panzer general · Post by **Panzer general** » 23 Jun 2002 22:58

Victor wrote:Another thing would be: what on Earth can Hitler do to assist Japan?! .

Hitler did assist japan ! An example of this is U-boat 234 that was on his way to Japan. The U-Boat cargo was uranium and high ranked officers who knows much about making nukes! Also Hitler send some blue prints of his latest fighters and tanks.

Grtz

Panzer General

Mike R · Post by **Mike R** » 24 Jun 2002 04:48

When Hitler declared war on the US, is it possible that this action might have been largely an attempt to show support for the Japanese, and by doing so, hope to get a Japanese declaration of war against the Soviet Union in turn?

-Mike

rlh · Post by **rlh** » 25 Jun 2002 00:50

Did Hitler declare war to aid Japan or how much did the disclosure of the Rainbow-5 war plan in the Chicago Tribune on Thursday 4 Dec 1941 serve to incite him? The Tripartite Pact did not obligate Italy or Germany to go to war with the US since Japan initiated hostilities.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 25 Jun 2002 14:21

Panzer general wrote: Hitler did assist japan ! An example of this is U-boat 234 that was on his way to Japan. The U-Boat cargo was uranium and high ranked officers who knows much about making nukes! Also Hitler send some blue prints of his latest fighters and tanks.

I wouldn't call sending a submarine full of uranium and weapon projects at the end of the war helping. It was the desperate gesture of a desperate man. He probably wanted revenge for what was going to happen to him and didn’t want his enemies to get their hands on the most advanced German projects.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 25 Jun 2002 14:22

2ndPanzerEnthusiast wrote: When Hitler declared war on the US, is it possible that this action might have been largely an attempt to show support for the Japanese, and by doing so, hope to get a Japanese declaration of war against the Soviet Union in turn?

Who knows, it may be possible.
I think that he only recognized a state of affairs that already existed. The US was fighting an unofficial war against Germany for some time now.

Panzer general · Post by **Panzer general** » 26 Jun 2002 00:50

Victor wrote:I wouldn't call sending a submarine full of uranium and weapon projects at the end of the war helping. It was the desperate gesture of a desperate man. He probably wanted revenge for what was going to happen to him and didn’t want his enemies to get their hands on the most advanced German projects.

Oke I will make it more clear for u this time. Do u think this was just an ad hoc decision to send a submarine? Oke can u explain me how some high Japanese people/officers came on board/in Kiel/in Germany?

This help between Japan and germany was started since 1941. Japan was very interested in the german technology of making a nuke. But not only nukes were important for Japan. Many blue prints of German tanks/fighters etcetera were given to the Japanese.

I hope that this makes clear to u that the 2 axis-partners were working together for many years. But why sending the U-boat so late? Because they were now almost ready to make a nuke. The USA who capatured this boat was very happy with its crew and cargo on board. With this present ,givin by the germans, they were able to make the nukes much more faster!

Grtz

Panzer general

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 30 Jun 2002 10:44

You are not the only guy that seen Descovery Channel's documentary on the this submarine's mission. Germany gave Japan all her high-tech, when she was in collapse. Before this, just small, unimportant co-operative actions. Do you really think that Hitler, in the vent of winning the war with the SU would have gave the Japanese the plans and materials for the A-bomb, or the Me-262? Do you think he was insane to give away such weapons?

Through co-operation I generally understand military actions that would help Japan. And I really don't see how he could do this.

Panzer general · Post by **Panzer general** » 30 Jun 2002 22:23

He Victor just explain this oke

Can u explain me how some high Japanese people/officers came on board/in Kiel/in Germany?

Thank u very much.

Grtz

Panzer General

P.S. This was my last reply on this topic!

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 01 Jul 2002 08:35

What does this have to do with anything? They got there with a submarine. So what? Could Hitler send troops to help the Japas fight the Americans? No! Could he send ships? Yes, but mainly submarines which he would be needing to take Britain. Could he send airplanes? Yes, but not many (for the same logistical reasons as for ships) because he needed them to take on Britain.
Again, through military co-operation I understand commun offensives, not visits of courtesy.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 08 Jul 2002 15:14

Well, looks like you (Lord Gort) are not going to post the number of Siberian divisions shifted west, so I will.

2 tank divisions in July
1 tank division in August
3 rifle divisions in September
3 rifle division, 1 motorized rifle division and 1 tank division in October
1 tank division in November
Total: 6 rifle divisions, 1 motorized infantry division and 5 tank divisions

I wouldn’t call this "decisive"

b_c_ries · Post by **b_c_ries** » 28 Jul 2002 18:53

Japan was building an airplane that looked almost identical to the me-262, the Nakajima Kikka. Japan had acquired right to build the me-163 along with its Walther HWK rocket but the submarine carrying a disassembled example was sunk. What Japan really needed was the Panzerfaust. The Japanese had no effective Anti-Tank weapon and the U.S.A. exploited this weakness throughout the Pacific.

Gott · Post by **Gott** » 10 Aug 2002 10:53

please read my post in

"What if Japan attacked USSR after Barbarossa?"

it would explain it all

Andy · Post by **Andy** » 14 Aug 2002 06:35

Invading the Soviet Union would have been suicide for the Japanese. They needed the Resources in South East Asia. I am sure that the Japanese High Command thought about invading the SU but they realised that they needed the resources in South East Asia. It wasn't like Germany helped them out in their war against China. Also their Navy was more powerful than the Army after the Humiliating defeat in '39 at the hands of the Soviet Union. And they would have frozen to death in Siberia!

Tim Smith · Post by **Tim Smith** » 19 Aug 2002 16:05

One feasible option that the Japanese had in July 1941 was to attack the USSR, Great Britain and the Netherlands but NOT the USA.

It was Pearl Harbor that really rallied the American people behind Roosevelt. Without Pearl Harbor, they would have been a lot harder to convince that an invasion of British and Dutch territory constituted so great a threat to the US that they HAD to go to war with Japan.

No doubt Roosevelt would have talked them round eventually, but by that time the Japanese would be in Vladivostok, on the border of India and besieging Port Moresby.