What if : Japan

[IAR80]

What???
Is a decent coordination between ground forces and air force for effective close air support too much to ask for from the Japanese air force? I doubt that. Yes, in my opinion the air force would have played a vital role in such a campaign.

[Victor]

For the tenth time: the Japanese had other priorities! Their limited resources didn’t allow them to engage both the SU and the US. They gambled when they attacked the Americans and lost. If they attacked the SU, their dream of an SE Asian Empire would have lost any hope of fulfillment.
You also underestimate the fanaticism of the Soviet soldier. There are many cases in the GPW.

[Logan Hartke]

I don't think they would've won, but it would've forced the Siberian troops to stay there and I think Moscow would've fallen, at least for a short while.

Logan Hartke

[Andy H]

Depends on your definition of enough and what would be the aim of the Japanesse forces.

Due to the nature of the terrain the Russians like they did in the west would have retreated into the hinterland and only defending key logistical nodes. The Japanesse though advancing would be putting great strain on their logistics train. All of this could be achived by a relativly small amount of Russian divisions.

the Russians may not have been able to counterattack so effectively outside Moscow in 1941 if but for the transfer from the Far East but I suggest even if they hadn't transferred halve the amount that they did the Germans wouldn't have taken Moscow that winter.

Andy from the Shire

[b_c_ries]

I think that small groups of Japanese soldiers sobotaging the trans- Siberian railroad could have had a major impact on events in europe. Consider that Japanese aircraft were designed for extreme range and that Japanese troops were skilled at infiltration. Now imagine what some Japanese combat engineers 1,000 miles behind russian lines are placing charges along sections of the trans-siberian railroad as Marshal Zukov and his troops are trying to head west in time to rescue Moscow.

[Andy H]

I think the logistics of supplying deep penertarion teams on the Russian tundra would be way beyond the Japanesse capbilities. They may have been able to fly the odd intradiction mission against the railhead but not for any substantial period.

Andy from the Shire

[b_c_ries]

The Japanese often sent their troops on missions without sufficient supplies and expected them to forage for food. This enabled them to achieve their early victories and caused some of their worst military disasters. I don't think it would be out of character for several teams of combat engineers being airdropped with explosives, rifles and several pounds of rice with orders to blow bridges, hunt for food and find your own way home. Remember, some of these guys held out in the phillipines for thirty years after the war was over.

[Andy H]

With utmost respect to what the they achieved in the Pacific theatre, it pails in comparrison to the Russian Tundra, a desrt without sand it has been called.

Andy from the Shire

[b_c_ries]

The Japanese did alright on the Aleutian Islands, and parts of Japan are quite cold. A Railroad through barren terrain would be an easy target. If large troop trains were stranded by sabotage the troops on board couldn't forage sufficient food and many would starve others would desert. A group of about 40 Japanese would be small enough to forage without depleting available resources and large enough to pull up rails and bend them around trees. It is alot easier to cut a railroad than to keep it open. In order to protect their railroad a multitude of Russian divisions would be kept out of the battle against Germany.

[Victor]

Oh boy, some never give up. I will repeat this for the n-th time!

The only chance Japan had at achieving some success in this war was to do exactly what they did: concetrate on the US early and try to put them in a position when they would negotiate peace. Diverting precious resources to a border clash with Soviet forces was pure suicide.

[Panzer general]

Oh boy, some never give up. I will repeat this for the n-th time!

The only chance Japan had at achieving some success in this war was to do exactly what they did: concetrate on the US early and try to put them in a position when they would negotiate peace. Diverting precious resources to a border clash with Soviet forces was pure suicide.

Wrong! If Japan and Germany had both attack the USSR at the same time U got the famous 2 front war (Germany knows everything about it) Which Germany and Japan had won. This is because the Sovjets had to fight on 2 fronts with no change to move large groups to one side. What they did in real time to stop the Germans. In this situation that is not possible for the russians so Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad sure would have captured by the germans. This would have leaving the Russians without a capital, a government on the run and total disorder and chaos in the USSR.

So one enemy less. After that Japan had enought time to concentrate on his own goals again and Germany had then the change to send their major army to the west to launch an attack on England. And England wasn't strong enough at that time to win that battle.

So its about tactics and work together with your allies to achieve your goals and that of your partners.

Grtz

Panzer General

[Skorzeny]

The Japanese don't actually have to capture any Soviet territory. They just have to maintain enough presence that the Soviets do not dare remove their divisions from that front in time to prevent the Germans from capturing key objectives like Moscow and Leningrad before winter. By November at the latest the Soviets knew that the Japanese would not be involved and would in fact attack the United States instead. Everything could thus be thrown West to meet the Germans.

Dead right. The Russians knew through Sorge (IIRC) that the Japs were to attack to the south instead of in Siberia, or even to remain in Manchuria without attacking, so they were able to transfer their Siberian divisions to Moscow.

Now, if they didn't know the Japs intentions, then, as Scott says, they wouldn't have dared transfer the Siberian Divisions.

And that, Victor, is the point of this thread. It doesn't necessarily mean that the Japs had to attack and take Russian land, just threaten that they might, at any time, do that. And a few suicide missions to cut the railway would be entirely in keeping with the Japanese psyche of the time.

And without LL, the USSR would have been dead in the water, so to speak.

Otto

[Victor]

Wrong! If Japan and Germany had both attack the USSR at the same time U got the famous 2 front war (Germany knows everything about it) Which Germany and Japan had won. This is because the Sovjets had to fight on 2 fronts with no change to move large groups to one side. What they did in real time to stop the Germans. In this situation that is not possible for the russians so Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad sure would have captured by the germans. This would have leaving the Russians without a capital, a government on the run and total disorder and chaos in the USSR.

And what would Japan gain from this? Absolute zero. They wouldn't be able to attack the US and British as they did and will end up loosing the war faster. I don't see why they would be stupid to waste their chance of achieving their own goals for the sake of the German goals?

Btw, care to back up your premonition about the "imminent" Soviet collapse with some actual proof (like how many divisions that were shifted west would the Japanese tie down?)

So one enemy less. After that Japan had enought time to concentrate on his own goals again and Germany had then the change to send their major army to the west to launch an attack on England. And England wasn't strong enough at that time to win that battle.

Japan wouldn't have the resources necessary to concentrate on its own goals if it would waste a large part of them in a war with USSR.

Btw, Germany lost the Battle of Britain in 1940, when it was on the peak of power and Britain was at its lowest. What makes you think that it would win just like that?

So its about tactics and work together with your allies to achieve your goals and that of your partners.

What are you really trying to say here?

[Victor]

Now, if they didn't know the Japs intentions, then, as Scott says, they wouldn't have dared transfer the Siberian Divisions. And that, Victor, is the point of this thread.

No, the point is that if the Japanese would attack, not if the Russians would not know they wouldn't attack.
As I said time and time again, the Japanese would not have any real reason to attack the USSR and diminish their chances for a success against the US and UK (which were already small).

And without LL, the USSR would have been dead in the water, so to speak.

This topic was dicussed time and time again on different forums and so far I am not convinced about your conclusion.

[Skorzeny]

Obviously no point in reasoned debate on the Japanese Topic as you can't stand any other opinion.

Your ridiculous viewpoint on LL is ample proof on that.

Have a nice day!