Pre-WW1 Cruise Liners

[Peter89]

Well yes, the German torpedo bomber concept (2-3 engines, seaplane) was much more in line with this idea. Placing a few, easily disguiseable Hilfskreuzers with seaplane servicing capabilities around the Atlantic and Indian oceans would be much closer to reality. And there weren't extraordinary technical requirements either; a crane, a hand pump, a small platform on the ship and a few torpedos would do. And because the British lacked CAM and proper AA on their merchantmen until late 1941, there could be an opening in the early phase of the war (just like for the Condors). However, Germany simply did not possess enough torpedoes to make this a game changer; before they captured the French stocks, they had about as many torpedoes as one wave of attack in the Pacific carrier battles. But even a few seaplanes could do disproportionate damage, force a disproportionate response, ie. a great tool for asymmetric warfare.

[Takao]

I was joking there...

Zeppelin did not need the airport ship, as they had plenty of range to go the entire distance.

In that case I was thinking of a layover site for passengers to change flights.

Were you now...

CV-3 meets ZR-3

Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction.

[T. A. Gardner]

What the Germans could have done with a bit more foresight, and either the cooperation of the Luftwaffe or more of a naval air arm, was take more fast merchants and convert these into merchant raiders and seaplane tenders.

What they then do is pair a tender with a conventional merchant raider. The tender has at least a few 6" guns like the raider, both have some AA armament aboard. The tender carries several floatplanes that can be used as fighters--something like a better Ar 196--that can take on typical long-range maritime patrol planes or a scout from a battleship or cruiser, along with one or more heavy seaplanes. The later serve more as a LOC aircraft capable of flying back to Germany or from Germany to the tender. This might involve flying into a neutral nation or rendezvousing with another ship or U-boat at sea to complete the flight.
This gives the pair the ability to scout huge expanses of ocean much faster, avoid enemy cruisers looking for them, and even attack ships from a distance using the aircraft.

Converting a merchant into a seaplane tender could be done relatively quickly, as with converting a merchant into a commerce raider. In 1937-38 this would look like a pretty good combination for the Germans. If they were prepared for war in late 1939, they might have say, 8 to 10 pairs of such raiders at sea. For Göring and the Luftwaffe, participating is another propaganda victory so it shouldn't have been too hard to get the Luftwaffe to participate in converting 8 to 10 ships into tenders.
A basic seaplane tender conversion would require some hanger space for maintenance, a catapult or two, one or more suitable cranes being installed, and clearing part of the deck for a storage area for the planes. Add some additional fuel, magazine space, and the guns and you're all set.

[ArmchairSamurai]

What the Germans could have done with a bit more foresight, and either the cooperation of the Luftwaffe or more of a naval air arm, was take more fast merchants and convert these into merchant raiders and seaplane tenders.

What they then do is pair a tender with a conventional merchant raider. The tender has at least a few 6" guns like the raider, both have some AA armament aboard. The tender carries several floatplanes that can be used as fighters--something like a better Ar 196--that can take on typical long-range maritime patrol planes or a scout from a battleship or cruiser, along with one or more heavy seaplanes. The later serve more as a LOC aircraft capable of flying back to Germany or from Germany to the tender. This might involve flying into a neutral nation or rendezvousing with another ship or U-boat at sea to complete the flight.
This gives the pair the ability to scout huge expanses of ocean much faster, avoid enemy cruisers looking for them, and even attack ships from a distance using the aircraft.

Converting a merchant into a seaplane tender could be done relatively quickly, as with converting a merchant into a commerce raider. In 1937-38 this would look like a pretty good combination for the Germans. If they were prepared for war in late 1939, they might have say, 8 to 10 pairs of such raiders at sea. For Göring and the Luftwaffe, participating is another propaganda victory so it shouldn't have been too hard to get the Luftwaffe to participate in converting 8 to 10 ships into tenders.
A basic seaplane tender conversion would require some hanger space for maintenance, a catapult or two, one or more suitable cranes being installed, and clearing part of the deck for a storage area for the planes. Add some additional fuel, magazine space, and the guns and you're all set.

Sooo, something like this perhaps?

[Takao]

What the Germans could have done with a bit more foresight, and either the cooperation of the Luftwaffe or more of a naval air arm, was take more fast merchants and convert these into merchant raiders and seaplane tenders.

What they then do is pair a tender with a conventional merchant raider. The tender has at least a few 6" guns like the raider, both have some AA armament aboard. The tender carries several floatplanes that can be used as fighters--something like a better Ar 196--that can take on typical long-range maritime patrol planes or a scout from a battleship or cruiser, along with one or more heavy seaplanes. The later serve more as a LOC aircraft capable of flying back to Germany or from Germany to the tender. This might involve flying into a neutral nation or rendezvousing with another ship or U-boat at sea to complete the flight.
This gives the pair the ability to scout huge expanses of ocean much faster, avoid enemy cruisers looking for them, and even attack ships from a distance using the aircraft.

Converting a merchant into a seaplane tender could be done relatively quickly, as with converting a merchant into a commerce raider. In 1937-38 this would look like a pretty good combination for the Germans. If they were prepared for war in late 1939, they might have say, 8 to 10 pairs of such raiders at sea. For Göring and the Luftwaffe, participating is another propaganda victory so it shouldn't have been too hard to get the Luftwaffe to participate in converting 8 to 10 ships into tenders.
A basic seaplane tender conversion would require some hanger space for maintenance, a catapult or two, one or more suitable cranes being installed, and clearing part of the deck for a storage area for the planes. Add some additional fuel, magazine space, and the guns and you're all set.

Sooo, something like this perhaps?

Basically, HMAS Albatross with a "flying off" deck, instead of a catapult. Although HMAS Albatross was about 1,500 tons greater displacement. IIRC, Albatross only had 5-6 Walrus seaplanes.

[T. A. Gardner]

What the Germans could have done with a bit more foresight, and either the cooperation of the Luftwaffe or more of a naval air arm, was take more fast merchants and convert these into merchant raiders and seaplane tenders.

What they then do is pair a tender with a conventional merchant raider. The tender has at least a few 6" guns like the raider, both have some AA armament aboard. The tender carries several floatplanes that can be used as fighters--something like a better Ar 196--that can take on typical long-range maritime patrol planes or a scout from a battleship or cruiser, along with one or more heavy seaplanes. The later serve more as a LOC aircraft capable of flying back to Germany or from Germany to the tender. This might involve flying into a neutral nation or rendezvousing with another ship or U-boat at sea to complete the flight.
This gives the pair the ability to scout huge expanses of ocean much faster, avoid enemy cruisers looking for them, and even attack ships from a distance using the aircraft.

Converting a merchant into a seaplane tender could be done relatively quickly, as with converting a merchant into a commerce raider. In 1937-38 this would look like a pretty good combination for the Germans. If they were prepared for war in late 1939, they might have say, 8 to 10 pairs of such raiders at sea. For Göring and the Luftwaffe, participating is another propaganda victory so it shouldn't have been too hard to get the Luftwaffe to participate in converting 8 to 10 ships into tenders.
A basic seaplane tender conversion would require some hanger space for maintenance, a catapult or two, one or more suitable cranes being installed, and clearing part of the deck for a storage area for the planes. Add some additional fuel, magazine space, and the guns and you're all set.

Sooo, something like this perhaps?

That's one extreme with large seaplanes



This is more reasonable, where the ship has a hanger and deck aft to handle seaplanes



This is more in line with my suggestion, a merchant conversion. Add say 2 or 3 6" guns and some AA guns and it's good to go.

[ArmchairSamurai]

What the Germans could have done with a bit more foresight, and either the cooperation of the Luftwaffe or more of a naval air arm, was take more fast merchants and convert these into merchant raiders and seaplane tenders.

What they then do is pair a tender with a conventional merchant raider. The tender has at least a few 6" guns like the raider, both have some AA armament aboard. The tender carries several floatplanes that can be used as fighters--something like a better Ar 196--that can take on typical long-range maritime patrol planes or a scout from a battleship or cruiser, along with one or more heavy seaplanes. The later serve more as a LOC aircraft capable of flying back to Germany or from Germany to the tender. This might involve flying into a neutral nation or rendezvousing with another ship or U-boat at sea to complete the flight.
This gives the pair the ability to scout huge expanses of ocean much faster, avoid enemy cruisers looking for them, and even attack ships from a distance using the aircraft.

Converting a merchant into a seaplane tender could be done relatively quickly, as with converting a merchant into a commerce raider. In 1937-38 this would look like a pretty good combination for the Germans. If they were prepared for war in late 1939, they might have say, 8 to 10 pairs of such raiders at sea. For Göring and the Luftwaffe, participating is another propaganda victory so it shouldn't have been too hard to get the Luftwaffe to participate in converting 8 to 10 ships into tenders.
A basic seaplane tender conversion would require some hanger space for maintenance, a catapult or two, one or more suitable cranes being installed, and clearing part of the deck for a storage area for the planes. Add some additional fuel, magazine space, and the guns and you're all set.

Sooo, something like this perhaps?

Basically, HMAS Albatross with a "flying off" deck, instead of a catapult. Although HMAS Albatross was about 1,500 tons greater displacement. IIRC, Albatross only had 5-6 Walrus seaplanes.

Thanks for that! I like HMS Albatross's configuration; I did not know the concept I posted was so similar to a real ship.

[ArmchairSamurai]

That's one extreme with large seaplanes



This is more reasonable, where the ship has a hanger and deck aft to handle seaplanes



This is more in line with my suggestion, a merchant conversion. Add say 2 or 3 6" guns and some AA guns and it's good to go.

I was just about to post something about the Bussard hah! You beat me to the punch. Interesting suggestions, very much so. I am curious if the Friesenland could be modified for any internal storage space, like a simple carrier bay, to protect aircraft from attack and from the elements, because from the looks of other photos I found, only one plane seems to operate from the ship, and it's quite exposed.

[Takao]

What the Germans could have done with a bit more foresight, and either the cooperation of the Luftwaffe or more of a naval air arm, was take more fast merchants and convert these into merchant raiders and seaplane tenders.

What they then do is pair a tender with a conventional merchant raider. The tender has at least a few 6" guns like the raider, both have some AA armament aboard. The tender carries several floatplanes that can be used as fighters--something like a better Ar 196--that can take on typical long-range maritime patrol planes or a scout from a battleship or cruiser, along with one or more heavy seaplanes. The later serve more as a LOC aircraft capable of flying back to Germany or from Germany to the tender. This might involve flying into a neutral nation or rendezvousing with another ship or U-boat at sea to complete the flight.
This gives the pair the ability to scout huge expanses of ocean much faster, avoid enemy cruisers looking for them, and even attack ships from a distance using the aircraft.

Converting a merchant into a seaplane tender could be done relatively quickly, as with converting a merchant into a commerce raider. In 1937-38 this would look like a pretty good combination for the Germans. If they were prepared for war in late 1939, they might have say, 8 to 10 pairs of such raiders at sea. For Göring and the Luftwaffe, participating is another propaganda victory so it shouldn't have been too hard to get the Luftwaffe to participate in converting 8 to 10 ships into tenders.
A basic seaplane tender conversion would require some hanger space for maintenance, a catapult or two, one or more suitable cranes being installed, and clearing part of the deck for a storage area for the planes. Add some additional fuel, magazine space, and the guns and you're all set.

Sooo, something like this perhaps?

That's one extreme with large seaplanes



This is more reasonable, where the ship has a hanger and deck aft to handle seaplanes



This is more in line with my suggestion, a merchant conversion. Add say 2 or 3 6" guns and some AA guns and it's good to go.

I'd say that the seaplane carrier conversion that is in line with your suggestion...Is not German at all, but the Italian "Giuseppe Miraglia".
https://laststandonzombieisland.com/201 ... u-packing/

[T. A. Gardner]

I'd think the Germans would want something less obvious. This IJN conversion is more like what I'm thinking...



It has catapults and recovery for something like the Ar 196 and if you add in being able to handle larger seaplanes like say the Bv 138, even if only one or two, it would be very useful.
Imagine it firing off say 4 improved Ar 196 and intercepting an early war British FAA attempt to attack the two raiders with say 6 Skua or Swordfish versus those float fighters. It's likely the RN / FAA would lose that fight badly. It would only take one time for the British to panic over that and get serious trying to stop the Germans and that would require they pull lots of stuff from elsewhere to hunt them down.

Those same improved Ar 196 could also do something like bomb and strafe unarmed merchants off S. Africa or India and create quite a ruckus for the British. They also give--as does say a Bv 138 aboard--the ability to fly in to neutral ports like Portuguese ones in India or China where the crew is able to send diplomatic intelligence and reports to the local embassy and back to Germany.

The planes could also report the location of shipping to U-boats allowing them to more easily find targets and sink them.

[EwenS]

Quite a number of the German merchant raiders did carry aircraft but made little use of them.

Atlantis & Widder received He114
Kormoran, Thor & Michel got 1 or 2 Ar196
Orion began with an Ar196 and replaced it with a Nakajima E8N

Those vessels however depended on remaining disguised and "lost" in the shipping lanes of the South Atlantic and Indian Oceans. The aircraft needed to be kept out of sight in the hold. To operate them meant stopping and reducing their disguise to launch them. All very supicious to any patrolling warship or aircraft that suddenly hauls over the horizon. Same with picking them up from patrols. They relied on being able to sail up close to a target, knock out its radio with their first salvo if the target did not co-operate and stop. A strafing aircraft is not going to bring the same firepower to bear immediately. On top of that the target is going to have time to get a warning message off before the raider itself comes within range. And how does a merchantman react if it spots a single engined aircraft well outside the range of land based aircraft?

Something as large as a Bv138 is not going to be able to be hidden in the hold. And a catapult is something that, on something trying to look ike a merchant vessel is going to be hard to disguise. It had a wingspan of 88ft and length of 65ft. Most of these ships had a beam of 50-60 feet. Whichever way you look at it, some bit of it is going to be hanging over the side of these raiders, exposed to the elements and any heavy seas.

And for most of the war the raiders were operating in areas where U-boats did not. It was late 1941 before the U-boat war stretched into the South Atlantic and 1942 before it reached the Indian Ocean. By then the careers of most of the raiders had ended.

[T. A. Gardner]

Quite a number of the German merchant raiders did carry aircraft but made little use of them.

Atlantis & Widder received He114
Kormoran, Thor & Michel got 1 or 2 Ar196
Orion began with an Ar196 and replaced it with a Nakajima E8N

Those vessels however depended on remaining disguised and "lost" in the shipping lanes of the South Atlantic and Indian Oceans. The aircraft needed to be kept out of sight in the hold. To operate them meant stopping and reducing their disguise to launch them. All very supicious to any patrolling warship or aircraft that suddenly hauls over the horizon. Same with picking them up from patrols. They relied on being able to sail up close to a target, knock out its radio with their first salvo if the target did not co-operate and stop. A strafing aircraft is not going to bring the same firepower to bear immediately. On top of that the target is going to have time to get a warning message off before the raider itself comes within range. And how does a merchantman react if it spots a single engined aircraft well outside the range of land based aircraft?

Something as large as a Bv138 is not going to be able to be hidden in the hold. And a catapult is something that, on something trying to look ike a merchant vessel is going to be hard to disguise. It had a wingspan of 88ft and length of 65ft. Most of these ships had a beam of 50-60 feet. Whichever way you look at it, some bit of it is going to be hanging over the side of these raiders, exposed to the elements and any heavy seas.

And for most of the war the raiders were operating in areas where U-boats did not. It was late 1941 before the U-boat war stretched into the South Atlantic and 1942 before it reached the Indian Ocean. By then the careers of most of the raiders had ended.

That's why they'd have to operate in pairs. The seaplane ship can disguise itself when necessary, but normally doesn't need to because of the presence of the other conventional raider ship. That ship operates in the shipping lanes while the seaplane version supports from a distance. The two complement each other. Aircraft bring a new dimension to raiding that the Germans lacked.
If the catapult were a cross deck model, it would be easily hidden compared to variants that can rotate.

A merchant ship seeing a single engine aircraft in the distance might keep an eye on it, but in 1939 -40 I doubt that there are many merchant mariners versed in aircraft identification. If the plane doesn't attack or come close to the ship it ends up ignored. The ship's crew probably doesn't even send in a radio report fearing more being found by RDF than what they think is waters safe from enemy aircraft.

As for aircraft attacking shipping: Look at the damage the Japanese did in a single foray into the IO with their carriers. While the presence of a few bomb and gun armed Ar 196 equivalents isn't on that scale, their presence sinking or crippling a few merchants would throw British coastal shipping around India into a panic.

The Bv138 (or equivalent) is intended as mostly a courier rather than as a daily part of the ship's aircraft complement. It allows for long-range communications more than anything else.

Sure, all of this by late 1942 would be problematic due to improvements in aircraft, radar, ESM, and just sheer numbers of Allied warships about, but for the first two years of the war they could have done considerably more than they did with this expanded capacity.

[Peter89]

Quite a number of the German merchant raiders did carry aircraft but made little use of them.

Atlantis & Widder received He114
Kormoran, Thor & Michel got 1 or 2 Ar196
Orion began with an Ar196 and replaced it with a Nakajima E8N

Those vessels however depended on remaining disguised and "lost" in the shipping lanes of the South Atlantic and Indian Oceans. The aircraft needed to be kept out of sight in the hold. To operate them meant stopping and reducing their disguise to launch them. All very supicious to any patrolling warship or aircraft that suddenly hauls over the horizon. Same with picking them up from patrols. They relied on being able to sail up close to a target, knock out its radio with their first salvo if the target did not co-operate and stop. A strafing aircraft is not going to bring the same firepower to bear immediately. On top of that the target is going to have time to get a warning message off before the raider itself comes within range. And how does a merchantman react if it spots a single engined aircraft well outside the range of land based aircraft?

Something as large as a Bv138 is not going to be able to be hidden in the hold. And a catapult is something that, on something trying to look ike a merchant vessel is going to be hard to disguise. It had a wingspan of 88ft and length of 65ft. Most of these ships had a beam of 50-60 feet. Whichever way you look at it, some bit of it is going to be hanging over the side of these raiders, exposed to the elements and any heavy seas.

And for most of the war the raiders were operating in areas where U-boats did not. It was late 1941 before the U-boat war stretched into the South Atlantic and 1942 before it reached the Indian Ocean. By then the careers of most of the raiders had ended.

That's why they'd have to operate in pairs. The seaplane ship can disguise itself when necessary, but normally doesn't need to because of the presence of the other conventional raider ship. That ship operates in the shipping lanes while the seaplane version supports from a distance. The two complement each other. Aircraft bring a new dimension to raiding that the Germans lacked.
If the catapult were a cross deck model, it would be easily hidden compared to variants that can rotate.

A merchant ship seeing a single engine aircraft in the distance might keep an eye on it, but in 1939 -40 I doubt that there are many merchant mariners versed in aircraft identification. If the plane doesn't attack or come close to the ship it ends up ignored. The ship's crew probably doesn't even send in a radio report fearing more being found by RDF than what they think is waters safe from enemy aircraft.

As for aircraft attacking shipping: Look at the damage the Japanese did in a single foray into the IO with their carriers. While the presence of a few bomb and gun armed Ar 196 equivalents isn't on that scale, their presence sinking or crippling a few merchants would throw British coastal shipping around India into a panic.

The Bv138 (or equivalent) is intended as mostly a courier rather than as a daily part of the ship's aircraft complement. It allows for long-range communications more than anything else.

Sure, all of this by late 1942 would be problematic due to improvements in aircraft, radar, ESM, and just sheer numbers of Allied warships about, but for the first two years of the war they could have done considerably more than they did with this expanded capacity.

The most likely candidate for this role would be the He 59. The problem was, of course, the He 59's poor performance. The other candidate, He 115's numbers were very low: rising from 13 to 36 at the outbreak of the war. Also it was thought to be too fast to release torpedoes. Then again, aerial torpedoes were extremely rare. I mean we could also give them names: 76 pieces existed in 1939, rising to 135 on March 1940. After the capture of huge stocks, the Germans had this arsenal:



The average early war German torpedo hit ratio was around 20-30%, thus we are roughly talking about 20-30 ships in 1939-1940, and a further 100-150 tops before the whole window of opportunity closes.

[ArmchairSamurai]

Quite a number of the German merchant raiders did carry aircraft but made little use of them.

Atlantis & Widder received He114
Kormoran, Thor & Michel got 1 or 2 Ar196
Orion began with an Ar196 and replaced it with a Nakajima E8N

Those vessels however depended on remaining disguised and "lost" in the shipping lanes of the South Atlantic and Indian Oceans. The aircraft needed to be kept out of sight in the hold. To operate them meant stopping and reducing their disguise to launch them. All very supicious to any patrolling warship or aircraft that suddenly hauls over the horizon. Same with picking them up from patrols. They relied on being able to sail up close to a target, knock out its radio with their first salvo if the target did not co-operate and stop. A strafing aircraft is not going to bring the same firepower to bear immediately. On top of that the target is going to have time to get a warning message off before the raider itself comes within range. And how does a merchantman react if it spots a single engined aircraft well outside the range of land based aircraft?

Something as large as a Bv138 is not going to be able to be hidden in the hold. And a catapult is something that, on something trying to look ike a merchant vessel is going to be hard to disguise. It had a wingspan of 88ft and length of 65ft. Most of these ships had a beam of 50-60 feet. Whichever way you look at it, some bit of it is going to be hanging over the side of these raiders, exposed to the elements and any heavy seas.

And for most of the war the raiders were operating in areas where U-boats did not. It was late 1941 before the U-boat war stretched into the South Atlantic and 1942 before it reached the Indian Ocean. By then the careers of most of the raiders had ended.

That's why they'd have to operate in pairs. The seaplane ship can disguise itself when necessary, but normally doesn't need to because of the presence of the other conventional raider ship. That ship operates in the shipping lanes while the seaplane version supports from a distance. The two complement each other. Aircraft bring a new dimension to raiding that the Germans lacked.
If the catapult were a cross deck model, it would be easily hidden compared to variants that can rotate.

A merchant ship seeing a single engine aircraft in the distance might keep an eye on it, but in 1939 -40 I doubt that there are many merchant mariners versed in aircraft identification. If the plane doesn't attack or come close to the ship it ends up ignored. The ship's crew probably doesn't even send in a radio report fearing more being found by RDF than what they think is waters safe from enemy aircraft.

As for aircraft attacking shipping: Look at the damage the Japanese did in a single foray into the IO with their carriers. While the presence of a few bomb and gun armed Ar 196 equivalents isn't on that scale, their presence sinking or crippling a few merchants would throw British coastal shipping around India into a panic.

The Bv138 (or equivalent) is intended as mostly a courier rather than as a daily part of the ship's aircraft complement. It allows for long-range communications more than anything else.

Sure, all of this by late 1942 would be problematic due to improvements in aircraft, radar, ESM, and just sheer numbers of Allied warships about, but for the first two years of the war they could have done considerably more than they did with this expanded capacity.

The most likely candidate for this role would be the He 59. The problem was, of course, the He 59's poor performance. The other candidate, He 115's numbers were very low: rising from 13 to 36 at the outbreak of the war. Also it was thought to be too fast to release torpedoes. Then again, aerial torpedoes were extremely rare. I mean we could also give them names: 76 pieces existed in 1939, rising to 135 on March 1940. After the capture of huge stocks, the Germans had this arsenal:



The average early war German torpedo hit ratio was around 20-30%, thus we are roughly talking about 20-30 ships in 1939-1940, and a further 100-150 tops before the whole window of opportunity closes.

Alright, so it has been determined that given the OTL constraints, modifying merchantmen into seaplane tenders would be a more realistic option for German "carrier" action and they would likely serve as commerce raiders along with other OTL ships in that same role. However, the next problem is with which seaplanes will these tenders operate? Worse, how to overcome the torpedo problem prior to the French stock being captured?

My first question: if the He-115 is in low numbers up to 1940, what is stopping Heinkel from producing more? To my knowledge, the only planes under Heinkel up until late 1940 are the He-111, He-115, and He-59, with none of them using the same engine; but that is not to say Heinkel is not having to share engines with other planes from other manufacturers, because that could very well be likely. Could it be that OTL these planes would typically operate from a coastline base, and prior to the fall of France / Norway, these forward operating bases were not available, therefore making the plane non-essential? It cannot be the lack of manufacturing capacity, because that is why Blohm & Voss declined to produce the Ha-140, even though it won the contest that the Heinkel was reluctantly awarded.

My second question: could the Fiesler Fi-167, if converted to a floatplane, be sufficient in the role required for these tenders? Said ship was to be the designated torpedo / reconnaissance plane of the Graf Zeppelin when it was being constructed, only losing out to the Ju-87 in that role once the carrier's construction was resumed in 1942. I make this suggestion because, in theory, the Fi-167 would be the counterpart to the Fairey Swordfish, which was not replaced by the Albacore until March of 1940. Otherwise, would the Ju-87 be selected anyway, much like in the OTL, only instead of arrestor cables, it has floats? Can Junkers handle the increased production numbers that this would bring on?

My third question: with the introduction of such ships into the commerce raider foray, would the earlier introduction of CAM ships be a realistic British response? If that were the case, then that opens up the vulnerability of the tender's torpedo-bombers to fighter attack, though only one at a time per ship, and depending on how many CAMs are encountered per convoy; therefore each tender might need a least one fighter escort for their bombers if only to fight off a possible CAM response. The Arado Ar-96 would be suitable to fight Skua or Swordfish as pointed out by Gardener, but how would they fair against the so-called "Hurricat"?

My fourth question: would the pairing of such tenders with surface ships like Bismarck, Prinz Eugen, Tirpitz, etc., necessitate the additional use of auxiliary ships for refueling / repair / rearming purposes, or could those too be converted to carry planes, thereby eliminating the need for extra ships? Would they be paired at all, perhaps operating among similar ships, but never with big targets like capital ships? Otherwise, the commerce raider packs I am envisioning are starting to balloon into convoys, and with more ships, comes a larger target for enemy reconnaissance. This comes more into play with what EwenS mentioned in his post, as these ships played off being less of a target, but in the vast openness of the North Atlantic or even the Indian Ocean, they would do little alone, compared to the wolfpacks operated by their submarine counterparts, without additional support. Am I wrong to think this?

My fifth question: (this goes along with what my last question touched on) would such convoys be better suited for Indian Ocean operations as compared to the North Atlantic? Leave the open Atlantic Ocean to the submarines, and send the tenders to waters less in the iron grip of the RN, as the IJN's influence is nearby. This might make sense tactically, as the Suez Canal kept the flow of armies, weapons, and supplies to the Mediterranean and if the Indian Ocean becomes hotly contested, that would require the RN to pull more ships away from elsewhere to keep the shipping lanes open, which in theory, would help the U-boats in the Atlantic.

My sixth question: what kept German torpedo development? The only serious effort I know of within Germany for the industrialized testing of torpedoes was the Torpedowaffenplatz Hexengrund, and it was not operational until 1942. Was this merely an interbranch squabble, where the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe would not work together? I see the Italians sold Germany a torpedo, and the latter effectively copied it from my understanding; why was this not done sooner? It really seems like the naval air arm was significantly neglected prior to WW2. I suppose that makes sense given the wider tactics used in the early days focused more on land-based aircraft as opposed to sea-based, but it's still notable enough to mention.

I am sure I missed a lot of things I could be proposing.

[Takao]

My first question: if the He-115 is in low numbers up to 1940, what is stopping Heinkel from producing more? To my knowledge, the only planes under Heinkel up until late 1940 are the He-111, He-115, and He-59, with none of them using the same engine; but that is not to say Heinkel is not having to share engines with other planes from other manufacturers, because that could very well be likely. Could it be that OTL these planes would typically operate from a coastline base, and prior to the fall of France / Norway, these forward operating bases were not available, therefore making the plane non-essential? It cannot be the lack of manufacturing capacity, because that is why Blohm & Voss declined to produce the Ha-140, even though it won the contest that the Heinkel was reluctantly awarded.

What limited the production of the He-115? Given it's primarily naval nature, it was never considered a priority aircraft. The aircraft might not share engines, but they share aluminum as well as other resources.

The Ha-140 did not win the contest with the He-115...It lost!
The losing Ha-140

Wonder why it lost?? Might have something to do with the crushed float & starboard engine knocked loose from it's mounting. Can't say for certain, but the damage does not appear to be from "a lack of production."

My second question: could the Fiesler Fi-167, if converted to a floatplane, be sufficient in the role required for these tenders? Said ship was to be the designated torpedo / reconnaissance plane of the Graf Zeppelin when it was being constructed, only losing out to the Ju-87 in that role once the carrier's construction was resumed in 1942. I make this suggestion because, in theory, the Fi-167 would be the counterpart to the Fairey Swordfish, which was not replaced by the Albacore until March of 1940. Otherwise, would the Ju-87 be selected anyway, much like in the OTL, only instead of arrestor cables, it has floats? Can Junkers handle the increased production numbers that this would bring on?

The Fi-167 probably could be converted to a floatplane - After all, the Americans converted the TBD Devastator and SB2C Helldiver into one-off floatplanes.(Not that they were put into production).

My third question: with the introduction of such ships into the commerce raider foray, would the earlier introduction of CAM ships be a realistic British response? If that were the case, then that opens up the vulnerability of the tender's torpedo-bombers to fighter attack, though only one at a time per ship, and depending on how many CAMs are encountered per convoy; therefore each tender might need a least one fighter escort for their bombers if only to fight off a possible CAM response. The Arado Ar-96 would be suitable to fight Skua or Swordfish as pointed out by Gardener, but how would they fair against the so-called "Hurricat"?

More likely an earlier introduction of CAM Ships and CVEs.

The 196 could handle itself at low speed. One 196 took on 6 Spitfires...It shot down 1 and damaged 1, before being shot down(pilot survived, rear gunner was killed).

My fourth question: would the pairing of such tenders with surface ships like Bismarck, Prinz Eugen, Tirpitz, etc., necessitate the additional use of auxiliary ships for refueling / repair / rearming purposes, or could those too be converted to carry planes, thereby eliminating the need for extra ships? Would they be paired at all, perhaps operating among similar ships, but never with big targets like capital ships? Otherwise, the commerce raider packs I am envisioning are starting to balloon into convoys, and with more ships, comes a larger target for enemy reconnaissance. This comes more into play with what EwenS mentioned in his post, as these ships played off being less of a target, but in the vast openness of the North Atlantic or even the Indian Ocean, they would do little alone, compared to the wolfpacks operated by their submarine counterparts, without additional support. Am I wrong to think this?

Let's see...You are putting out more commerce raiders, but want to do away with the auxiliary ships that were supporting them...Probably not a good idea. Converting the auxiliaries into seaplane carriers(with an air group of 20 or so floatplanes would negative their usefulness as resupply ships.

My fifth question: (this goes along with what my last question touched on) would such convoys be better suited for Indian Ocean operations as compared to the North Atlantic? Leave the open Atlantic Ocean to the submarines, and send the tenders to waters less in the iron grip of the RN, as the IJN's influence is nearby. This might make sense tactically, as the Suez Canal kept the flow of armies, weapons, and supplies to the Mediterranean and if the Indian Ocean becomes hotly contested, that would require the RN to pull more ships away from elsewhere to keep the shipping lanes open, which in theory, would help the U-boats in the Atlantic.

Indian Ocean where the flying weather was better. You could launch a floatplane in rough weather, but not recover it.

The ships pulled off would probably be immaterial. Heavy Cruisers and light cruisers were not that effective against U-Boats.

My sixth question: what kept German torpedo development? The only serious effort I know of within Germany for the industrialized testing of torpedoes was the Torpedowaffenplatz Hexengrund, and it was not operational until 1942. Was this merely an interbranch squabble, where the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe would not work together? I see the Italians sold Germany a torpedo, and the latter effectively copied it from my understanding; why was this not done sooner? It really seems like the naval air arm was significantly neglected prior to WW2. I suppose that makes sense given the wider tactics used in the early days focused more on land-based aircraft as opposed to sea-based, but it's still notable enough to mention.

I am sure I missed a lot of things I could be proposing.

Good overview of German Air torpedo development.

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2020/04/2 ... torpedoes/