Best Japanese strategic choice with hindsight

[Takao]

I see that you think that to vote for Hitler meant to support Hitler .And that is wrong .It was the same in the USSR .

So, the Germans who voted KDP supported Hitler...That is wrong.

About Stalin : only a small part of the population was going to the Gulag and almost half of them deserved their fate : they were common criminals and not victims of the regime .

18 million is hardly a small part of the population.

So, more than half of the Gulag prisoners did not deserve their fate.

Stalin neither Hitler could send the majority of the population to Kolyma/Buchenwald .If hundreds of thousands had revolted, thousands would be shot ,but the regime would collaps ,but hundreds of thousands did not revolt, because they had a job and their children were not starving .

Yeah, no.
Hundreds of thousands revolted in China, China did not collapse.
Same for Syria, Iran, etc.

To survive a dictator needs
1 a police to eliminate possible opponents
2 a propaganda department to highlight successes and hide failures
3 successes
And successes are the most important of all .If there are no successes,propaganda can not invent successes and the police can not eliminate opponents,because there will be too many of them .

Germany had no successes 1943-45, and there was no revolt.
Japan had no successes 1943-45, and there was no revolt.
Indeed, most Japanese thought they were winning right up until they lost.

[ljadw]

Hitler did not fail to solve Germany's economic problems :in 1933 there was a shortage of jobs, in 1939 a shortage of workers .
Where is your proof that the Iranians who fought and died for Khomeini (and we know what the policy of Khomeini was ) wanted American style democracy ?
The Iranians opposed the modernization of the Shah,they supported some one who wanted to return to the Middle Ages,this proves that they refused western democracy .

[ljadw]

There were never at any moment 18 million people in the Gulag :18 million is a total of people who were in the Gulag during X years .Mostly the annual number was some 2 million,,less than 2 % of the population .
About Stalin : the fact that there was a famine in the USSR (for which the communists were indirectly partially responsible) does not mean that in 1932 live was not better than in 1912 .

[ljadw]

I see that you think that to vote for Hitler meant to support Hitler .And that is wrong .It was the same in the USSR .

So, the Germans who voted KDP supported Hitler...That is wrong.

Nonsense : the truth is that it is not so that Germans who voted for the KPD were supporters of the KPD.
In 1932 a lot of communists and people who voted for the KPD (there is a difference between both ) voted for Hindenburg as president . That does not make them supporters of Hindenburg .
In 1952 and 1956 a lot of non republicans voted for Eisenhower as president,but for a democrat in congress .
Besides, the KPD and the NSDAP agreed on a lot of points .
I know some one who told me that at every election he voted for the opposition,to give, as he told me ,other people the chance to fill their pockets .
Thus : voting for X and supporting X are 2 different things .
I have given the example of France where the president won the presidential election and a month later lost the legislative election .In the US the GOP won several times the presidential election but lost SIMULTANEOUSLY the Congressional election .
The reasons why someone votes for a politician are mostly not political .

[Takao]

Hitler did not fail to solve Germany's economic problems :in 1933 there was a shortage of jobs, in 1939 a shortage of workers .

Hitler failed to solve Germany's economic problems 1941-45. Yet, there was no revolution. Hitler suffered nothing but military defeats 1942-45, yet there was no revolution. The German people were not able to adequately feed themselves 1944-45, yet there was no revolution. The German people did not even rise up when the military tried to overthrow Hitler in 1944.

Where is your proof that the Iranians who fought and died for Khomeini (and we know what the policy of Khomeini was ) wanted American style democracy ?

I never once mentioned Khomeini...Another in your long list of lies, falsehoods, and untruths.

The Iranians opposed the modernization of the Shah,they supported some one who wanted to return to the Middle Ages,this proves that they refused western democracy .

Yes, and the Iranian Revolution of 1979 proves you wrong.
The people were not starving, the country had suffered no military defeats, the country was prosperous, etc. There were none of the reasons you stated for a revolution to occur, yet a revolution did occur.

[Takao]

There were never at any moment 18 million people in the Gulag :18 million is a total of people who were in the Gulag during X years .Mostly the annual number was some 2 million,,less than 2 % of the population .
About Stalin : the fact that there was a famine in the USSR (for which the communists were indirectly partially responsible) does not mean that in 1932 live was not better than in 1912 .

Fairly certain, if you are starving in 1932, you are not living better than when you were not starving in 1912.

Do you consider starving to be "living better?"

[ljadw]

There were never at any moment 18 million people in the Gulag :18 million is a total of people who were in the Gulag during X years .Mostly the annual number was some 2 million,,less than 2 % of the population .
About Stalin : the fact that there was a famine in the USSR (for which the communists were indirectly partially responsible) does not mean that in 1932 live was not better than in 1912 .

Fairly certain, if you are starving in 1932, you are not living better than when you were not starving in 1912.

Do you consider starving to be "living better?"

Only a small part of the Soviet population suffered from the 1932 famine .The majority did not and had a better live than in 1912 ,that's why they supported Stalin .

[Peter89]

This is so boring.

Passive obedience does not mean enthusiastic support. Period.

[ljadw]

'' The keynote of the Japanese character is loyalty, rather than freedom and individuality . ''
Source : American Historical Association :What shall be done about Japan after victory ?
And, Japan fought during 50 years,its population's reaction was not passive obedience but enthusiastic support .
Without enthusiastic support,no state can fight during 50 years .
From '' Imperial Japan's Forever War 1895-1945 '' P 17'' Oleg Benesch and Ran Zwigenberg have coined the useful term ''Taisho militarism '' to explain the army's use of economic and cultural levers to consolidate its centrality in Japanese life, during a period of liberal fluorescence .''
Liberalism and militarism do not exclude each other . The past has given enough examples were liberalism was a breeding ground for militarism .
The Japanese forces in Manchuria did not return to Japan during the Taisho period .

[Peter89]

Ljdaw you simply can not explain why Japanese people didn't commit suicide en masse if they were so much enthusiastic about it.

No amount of warping the factual truth can prove that. Therefore it does not really make sense to continue this rather boring topic.

[glenn239]

No amount of warping the factual truth can prove that. Therefore it does not really make sense to continue this rather boring topic.

It did serve as a useful distraction from the hypothetical of IJN carriers in 1941 having a kamikaze squadron through, say hypothetically Nagumo had for Midway -

Akagi: 24VF, 18VT, 18VB, 9 Kamikaze
Kaga: 27VF, 18VB, 18 VT, 9 Kamikaze
Hiryu: 21 VF, 18VB, 12VT, 6 Kamikaze
Soryu: 21VG, 18VB, 12 VT, 6 Kamikaze

So the Midwayl strike would be 36 VF, 36VB, 24VT (level bombing)
And the reserve wave would be - 24VF, 36VB, 36VT, 30 kamikaze.

Nagumo cannot rearm the kamikazes, which are dedicated naval strike forces, so he launches around 0830 -

12VT, 36VB, 30 Kamikaze

The question to that is, will any US carrier still be operational by noon?

[Peter89]

No amount of warping the factual truth can prove that. Therefore it does not really make sense to continue this rather boring topic.

It did serve as a useful distraction from the hypothetical of IJN carriers in 1941 having a kamikaze squadron through, say hypothetically Nagumo had for Midway -

Akagi: 24VF, 18VT, 18VB, 9 Kamikaze
Kaga: 27VF, 18VB, 18 VT, 9 Kamikaze
Hiryu: 21 VF, 18VB, 12VT, 6 Kamikaze
Soryu: 21VG, 18VB, 12 VT, 6 Kamikaze

So the Midwayl strike would be 36 VF, 36VB, 24VT (level bombing)
And the reserve wave would be - 24VF, 36VB, 36VT, 30 kamikaze.

Nagumo cannot rearm the kamikazes, which are dedicated naval strike forces, so he launches around 0830 -

12VT, 36VB, 30 Kamikaze

The question to that is, will any US carrier still be operational by noon?

It would be interesting to know how much training a kamikaze pilot needed?

[glenn239]

It would be interesting to know how much training a kamikaze pilot needed?

One factor is whether or not there would be a requirement for carrier landings in cases of targets not being found, or if in this instance returning aircraft would make water landings. Also, whether units would be expected to operate independently, or just tag along with conventional strike packages. Maybe 150-300 hours, depending on the answers.

[ljadw]

Ljdaw you simply can not explain why Japanese people didn't commit suicide en masse if they were so much enthusiastic about it.

They did not commit suicide en masse because the Emperor ordered them to capitulate and thus there was no invasion .If there was an invasion,millions would have committed suicide .
Admiral Onishi knew better than you : he expected 20 million suicides in case of invasion .

[Peter89]

It would be interesting to know how much training a kamikaze pilot needed?

One factor is whether or not there would be a requirement for carrier landings in cases of targets not being found, or if in this instance returning aircraft would make water landings. Also, whether units would be expected to operate independently, or just tag along with conventional strike packages. Maybe 150-300 hours, depending on the answers.

Well that is quite a lot. It might make more sense to operate them from land, no? In this case I can only imagine a special force of a few planes that directly aim key points. Like, during a conventional attack against carriers, a few kamikaze aims for the flight deck of the carriers preventing or delaying the return or the takeoff of the carrier's own aircraft.