Four Panzer divisions in Normandy

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Ружичасти Слон
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Re: Four Panzer divisions in Normandy

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 19 Apr 2021 14:16

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
19 Apr 2021 03:40

Just to restore context :

We are supposed to compare the above ensemble with the situation in the afternoon of 6th June, in Normandy, where Rommel had full control (I have at the very outset, made this scenario contingent on Rommel having been personally present in Normandy on the 6th) with 3 full Pz Divs, against an unsettled enemy, who have just emerged from the traumatic experience of a contested, low tide landing in choppy seas.. and are just getting their bearings. And whose Canadian component were green troops and commanders, proven later to be not very bright, when the going got rough (In Totalize, with overwhelming superiority, they allowed KG Waldmüller's 43 panzers to spook their 2 armoured brigades with 600 tanks, used in the most curious way conceivable!).
Just to restore context :

On 8.august 1944.year kg waldmuller and 12.ss panzer division was make counter attack for to stop ally advance and push back front line troops. Same logic as was write juan on first message on topic.

What was be result ?

Kg waldmuller and 12.ss panzer division was fail complete. They was not stop advance. They was not capture no ground. They was not push back ally front line troops.

Main attack was be stop by one infantry battalion who was have support on 1 tank battalion. There was be some small help on flank by 2.tank battalion.

They was not make any change on plan operation totalize and it was continue like kg waldmuller counter attack was not exist.

Only on this moment was start problem for allys. And problem was be because commanders was not be so much good.

Operation totalize can to be excellent example on how juan imagination story on 4 panzer divisions will tobe big losses on germany army.

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Re: Four Panzer divisions in Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 19 Apr 2021 14:29

Avalancheon wrote:
19 Apr 2021 04:08
Instead of jumping to the question of what would have happened if there were four panzer divisions available for immediate use on the first day of the Normandy landings, it would be more useful to demonstrate what could have happened if there were just two panzer divisions.
Instead of jumping to the question of what would have happened if there were any additional Panzer divisions in Normandy, it would be more useful to demonstrate why and how these multiple points-of-departure would occur.
Disaster at D-Day by Peter Tsouras offers a demonstration of how differently the landings could have went. In this story, there are several points of departure (POD) that change the initial conditions of the battle, and allow the Germans to put up a much stiffer fight against the Allies. Some of the changes that occur are:
-Erwin Rommel is able to convince Hitler to move the 12th SS Panzer division closer up to the beachs of Normandy.
Rommel's intent was not to place 12. SS-Panzer "closer to the beachs [sic] of Normandy". IIRC, he intended to place it in and around Coutances. From there, you need to look at why Carentan is named Carentan les Marais.
-Rommel decides to stay in Normandy instead of leaving for Germany to visit his wife. He visits Erich Marcks at his headquarters, and both men are present when the airborne and naval landings begin. They are able to quickly take control of the situation and organise a rapid response.
Tsouras sadly displayed considerable ignorance about the German situation in that book. If Rommel did not leave for Germany, wouldn't he instead be at La Roche-Guyon? Or at Reims for the exercise? Why would he visit Marcks at his headquarters 250-odd kilometers away?
On the first day of the invasion, several things happen that spell the doom for Operation Overlord:
-The 12th SS Panzer division sends a kampfgruppe to Utah beach, preventing the 82nd and 101st Airbone divisions from linking up with the 4th Infantry division. The Airborne divisions are hit hard, and the 4th Infantry division is pinned down.
Regardless of where the 12. SS was, Acon or Coutances, Rommel has zero control over its movements. It remains OKW reserve. And, again, les Marais, as usual, the terrain tells you quite a bit about what was possible. In this case, the crossings of the Merderet are key...as are the scattered pockets of airborne in route.
-The landing craft headed for Omaha beach get scattered, and as a result, the LCTs land their tanks directly in front of German strongpoints where they are quickly destroyed. The 1st and 29th Infantry division have a longer and tougher fight to get off the beach.
This is just silly. The "landing craft headed for Omaha beach" did get scattered...at least a number of LCVP did, which is what actually gave the 1st Division and atached elements of the 29th Division a longer and tougher fight to get off the beaches. There were few problems with the larger and more powerful LCT and LCI(L). The wading tanks of the 741st Tank Battalion did land, more or less, directly in front of German strongpoints...the 743d did not, but the presence of the strongpoints kept them hemmed in and marginally useful.
-The 12th SS Panzer division sends a kampfgruppe to Omaha beach, arriving just in time to stop the 1s and 29th infantry division from advancing inland. The Germans launch a determined counter-attack and drive them into the sea, causing the landings to be abandoned.
Its 54 kilometers Coutances to the bridges at Isigny. When does OKW finally release 12. SS? How long does it take for them to get through past La Cambe to the beaches? They need to do that before noon 6 June to have any effect.

At 0130 6 June, the commander and CoS of 12. SS were aware the invasion had begun...they issued an alert order to the division an hour and a half later. Why do they move faster in this POD? At 0500, two hours later, Ob.West took unilateral control of the division, assigned it to HG-B, and directed it begin to move, IRL to the zone of 711. Inf-Div, in this case lets say to the zones of 352., 709., and/or 91. Inf-Div. At 1000, Ob.West rescinded the orders subordinating the division to HG-B, but allowed the division alert and movement to continue. At 1432, OKW agreed to the Ob.West request and HG-B was notified of release of 12.SS-Pz.Div. and Pz.-Lehr Div. At 1500, I SS-Pz.K. with 12.SS-Pz., Pz.Lehr Div., and s.SS-pz.Abt.101. was attached to 7.Armee, with 12.SS temporarily under command of LXXXIV AK. When it arrived at the front I SS-Pz.K. was to take command of 12.SS, Pz.-Lehr, 21.Pz., and 716.Inf.Div and prepare to counterattack. 12. SS actually began moving around 1800.

Why does any of that timeline change? "Because Rommel" is the usual "reason", but that isn't really a reason. Why would Rommel, at La Roche-Guyon, be any better apprised of the situation than the staff that was there that took the actions outlined above?
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: Four Panzer divisions in Normandy

Post by Cult Icon » 19 Apr 2021 15:57

Juan G. C. wrote:
19 Apr 2021 07:02
I fear this is my fault. I hadn't in mind any particular divisions. It was intended as an hypothetical what-if, no matter why the Panzer divisions were there.
Come to think of it, you or someone else could start a what-if on the Operation Luttich, the only corps-level, 7th Army planned counterattack of the Normandy campaign. What if the attack towards Avranches was made with full strength units instead of consolidated & depleted ones or what-if 9.Pz played a larger role etc. US 30th division would be overrun and there would be some interesting and new tank battles.

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Re: Four Panzer divisions in Normandy

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Apr 2021 16:09

Cult Icon wrote:
19 Apr 2021 13:00


However as usual counterattacks of this type preventing the British-Canadians from quickly seizing Caen and locked them down for a prolonged battle for Caen and its environs.
The decision to fight for Caen disrupted the early Allied 'timetable' of the invasion but made the later phases easier because the 'decisive battle in the interior' was fought around Caen. Instead of the expected short sharp fight for Normandy, a consolidation period whilst US troops landed direct at the Atlantic Ports and an advance to the German border where the decisive battle would be fought it all happened in June-August at Caen-Falaise. Then there was no German Army left to be able to fight for the interior of France. Hitler's fixation on Caen was fatal.
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 19 Apr 2021 16:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Four Panzer divisions in Normandy

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 19 Apr 2021 16:20

Richard Anderson wrote:
19 Apr 2021 03:31
Avalancheon wrote:
19 Apr 2021 01:33
Again, no one on this thread has bothered to tabulate the firepower of the Allied warships and weigh it against the German mechanized divisions that would be rushing the beachs. Until that happens, they have no basis on which to say that naval gunfire would automatically defeat any attempt at a large counter-attack.
Again, no one on this thread has bothered to tabulate which were the "German mechanized divisions that would be rushing the beachs [sic]."

So which ones were they? The three, or is it four again, that rush the beaches before noon on 6 June?
Appears you don't read, or worse still, cherry pick from what is there in the thread..and hence make non intelligent statements like "Again, no one on this thread has bothered to tabulate which were the "German mechanized divisions that would be rushing the beachs [sic]."
.. and in the process waste everyone's time...

Sad really..

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Re: Four Panzer divisions in Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 19 Apr 2021 16:46

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
19 Apr 2021 16:20

Appears you don't read, or worse still, cherry pick from what is there in the thread..and hence make non intelligent statements like "Again, no one on this thread has bothered to tabulate which were the "German mechanized divisions that would be rushing the beachs [sic]."
.. and in the process waste everyone's time...

Sad really..
No, what is sad is that you think insults and ad hominem constitute a coherent response. The who and how is the crux of this argument. You could as easily say 26. Panzer or 1. Panzer instead of 12. Panzer or Lehr and it would be just as silly and unthinking a response as are the rest of yours.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: Four Panzer divisions in Normandy

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 19 Apr 2021 17:08

Richard Anderson wrote:
19 Apr 2021 16:46
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
19 Apr 2021 16:20

Appears you don't read, or worse still, cherry pick from what is there in the thread..and hence make non intelligent statements like "Again, no one on this thread has bothered to tabulate which were the "German mechanized divisions that would be rushing the beachs [sic]."
.. and in the process waste everyone's time...

Sad really..
No, what is sad is that you think insults and ad hominem constitute a coherent response. The who and how is the crux of this argument. You could as easily say 26. Panzer or 1. Panzer instead of 12. Panzer or Lehr and it would be just as silly and unthinking a response as are the rest of yours.
Right sir. So from not "tabulating the German mechanized divisions that would be rushing the beaches" .. we have graduated to whatever tabulation has been provided is "silly and unthinking" regardless of what formations they may or maynot mention.

Bottomline anyone here with a contrary view is silly and thoughtless, irrespective of whatever content their posts may or may not contain.. Its all ipso facto rubbish.

Most gratified sir.

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Re: Four Panzer divisions in Normandy

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Apr 2021 17:33

How about some maps that show the relationship between bridges and roads? The map at left is 1950 so not too far from 1944. The air view is 1947.

The bottom 5 icons at right change the map views but avoid the little house second from top as it zooms you out to the whole of France.

https://remonterletemps.ign.fr/comparer ... =doubleMap
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 19 Apr 2021 17:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Four Panzer divisions in Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 19 Apr 2021 17:34

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
19 Apr 2021 17:08
Richard Anderson wrote:
19 Apr 2021 16:46
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
19 Apr 2021 16:20

Appears you don't read, or worse still, cherry pick from what is there in the thread..and hence make non intelligent statements like "Again, no one on this thread has bothered to tabulate which were the "German mechanized divisions that would be rushing the beachs [sic]."
.. and in the process waste everyone's time...

Sad really..
No, what is sad is that you think insults and ad hominem constitute a coherent response. The who and how is the crux of this argument. You could as easily say 26. Panzer or 1. Panzer instead of 12. Panzer or Lehr and it would be just as silly and unthinking a response as are the rest of yours.
Right sir. So from not "tabulating the German mechanized divisions that would be rushing the beaches" .. we have graduated to whatever tabulation has been provided is "silly and unthinking" regardless of what formations they may or maynot mention.

Bottomline anyone here with a contrary view is silly and thoughtless, irrespective of whatever content their posts may or may not contain.. Its all ipso facto rubbish.

Most gratified sir.
Do you really expect a response to your childish trolling? Your behavior hasn't changed during the years of your absence. Try responding with answers rather than ad hominem, because the only thing those will gain you is the same in response.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: Four Panzer divisions in Normandy

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 19 Apr 2021 18:06

Richard Anderson wrote:
19 Apr 2021 17:34
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
19 Apr 2021 17:08
Richard Anderson wrote:
19 Apr 2021 16:46
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
19 Apr 2021 16:20

Appears you don't read, or worse still, cherry pick from what is there in the thread..and hence make non intelligent statements like "Again, no one on this thread has bothered to tabulate which were the "German mechanized divisions that would be rushing the beachs [sic]."
.. and in the process waste everyone's time...

Sad really..
No, what is sad is that you think insults and ad hominem constitute a coherent response. The who and how is the crux of this argument. You could as easily say 26. Panzer or 1. Panzer instead of 12. Panzer or Lehr and it would be just as silly and unthinking a response as are the rest of yours.
Right sir. So from not "tabulating the German mechanized divisions that would be rushing the beaches" .. we have graduated to whatever tabulation has been provided is "silly and unthinking" regardless of what formations they may or maynot mention.

Bottomline anyone here with a contrary view is silly and thoughtless, irrespective of whatever content their posts may or may not contain.. Its all ipso facto rubbish.

Most gratified sir.
Do you really expect a response to your childish trolling? Your behavior hasn't changed during the years of your absence. Try responding with answers rather than ad hominem, because the only thing those will gain you is the same in response.
No point "answering" you sir...since you cherry pick what you read .. and then brazenly deny that the "answers" had been given on this thread.
In the years that I was absent, I have not changed but I see that you have changed though. You used to try and patiently read and engage all those years back. Now you just shoot from the hip .. without any reference to previously posted content on the subject of the thread and then you accuse folks of not having given those answers!

Sad really.

Cheers
Sandeep

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Re: Four Panzer divisions in Normandy

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 19 Apr 2021 19:00

At this point I'd recommend anyone objecting to ad hominid attacks, trolling, ect... put the member on ignore & move on with presenting evidence for the legit questions here.

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Re: Four Panzer divisions in Normandy

Post by Terry Duncan » 19 Apr 2021 19:25

Locked in order for people to reflect on the tendency to resort to personal comments once again. If this behaviour continues warnings/bans are inevitable. This has been discussed many times, the rules are clear on the subject, so take this as a final warning against such methods of 'debate' here. If you cannot discuss details politely with certain other posters, ignore them.

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