No German scientists/technology for the Wallies - impact on the Cold War?

[paulrward]

Hello All :

From a NASA official Photograph :

Von Braun Team.jpg

Wernher von Braun and his team in the fall of 1959. At the time, von Braun and his associates
worked for the Army Ballistic Missile Agency in Huntsville, Alabama. Those in the photograph
have been identified as Ernst Stuhlinger, Frederick von Saurma, Fritz Mueller, Hermann Weidner,
Erich W. Neubert (partially hidden), W.A. Mrazek, Karl Heimburg, Arthur Rudolph, Otto Hoberg,
Werner von Braun, Oswald Lange, General Bruce Medaris, Helmut Hoelzer, Hans Maus, E.D. Geissler,
Hans Hueter, and George Constan.


HMMMMM..... All Germans except for ONE U.S. Military Officer.....

Von Braun 2.jpg

Wernher von Braun in 1961 with members of his management team. Pictured from left to right are,
Werner Kuers, Director of the Manufacturing Engineering Division; Dr. Walter Häussermann,
Director of the Astrionics Division; Dr. William Mrazek, Propulsion and Vehicle Engineering Division;
Dr. von Braun; Dieter Grau, Director of the Quality Assurance Division; Dr. Oswald Lange,
Director of the Saturn Systems Office; and Erich W. Neubert, Associate Deputy Director for
Research and Development.


Note on the Blackboard on the right of the photo the drawings of the Saturn I and the Saturn V.


Why do ALL these guys have German names, if the majority were Americans.....


Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward

[Takao]

Odd...some 400,000 persons worked on the Apollo project.

I suppose, to our self-professed "engineer", a photo of 17 of them(16 being German), would constitute a majority of 400,000.

So, tell us Paul...How does 16 constitute a majority of 400,000?
Enquiring minds want to know.

[paulrward]

Hello All

Mr Takao wrote :

So, tell us Paul...How does 16 constitute a majority of 400,000?
Enquiring minds want to know.

Last night, I made three Pizzas for myself and a bunch of friends. ( An old tradition )

I used seven cups of flour. Thats almost two pounds of flour.

I used ONE packet of Yeast. Thats about 0.25 ounces.

So, the ratio of flour to yeast is about 120 to 1.

But, Mr. Takao, without the Yeast, the Dough will not rise.


If it hadn't been for the German Scientists leavening the U.S. Space Program in the late 1940s,
and all the way through the 1950s, and even into the 1960s, the Apollo Space Program might
have been a lot like a Thin Crust Pizza.

In other words, it wouldn't have ..... risen.

Now, Mr. Takao, my title of ' Engineer ' is NOT ' Self Professed ' - it was printed on my business cards
going as far back as 1980 ( Before that my titles were ' Chemist ' and ' Quality Control Lab Manager '. And,
in my experience as a Process Engineer and Quality Engineer, I have often been responsible for ensuring
the correct manufacturing of High Technology products in fabrication facilities that employed hundreds
of people who often had nothing more than a high school diploma, and oftentimes did not even possess
that ! In effect, I had to do the thinking, planning, and managing for them.

That's the way it works in Industry, and to a large extent, the Military. A few bright geniuses directing
a mob of people with average or below average IQs to carry out a program.

So, you can have 400,000 employees of NASA and it's subcontractors, but without the guiding light
of a few VERY smart people, they will turn out nothing but rockets that can't fly. Like the SLS and
the Artemis. Billions spent, and nothing to show for it but crappy hardware that doesn't work.

On the other hand, if you have a few Geniuses, like Elon Musk, who was born in South Africa, you
can launch satellites every few days with re-usable rockets, send people to the ISS, and even be
in position to take over the Lunar Program and kick NASA to the curb.



Respectfully

Paul R. Ward


P.S. - how many European Scientists were responsible for the Manhattan Project, starting with
that first letter to President Roosevelt, signed by, among others, a German named Einstein...

[Takao]

Last night, I made three Pizzas for myself and a bunch of friends. ( An old tradition )

I used seven cups of flour. Thats almost two pounds of flour.

I used ONE packet of Yeast. Thats about 0.25 ounces.

So, the ratio of flour to yeast is about 120 to 1.

But, Mr. Takao, without the Yeast, the Dough will not rise.

Thank you for proving your not an engineer...Or a baker for that matter.

Your argument is not about yeast, but the BRAND OF YEAST.
Did you use Caputo, Fleischmann's, Paneangeli, One in a Mill, or did you just grab whatever yeast the store had?

If it hadn't been for the German Scientists leavening the U.S. Space Program in the late 1940s,
and all the way through the 1950s, and even into the 1960s, the Apollo Space Program might
have been a lot like a Thin Crust Pizza.

From your Pizza story, the nationality does not matter...German yeast is as good as American yeast is as good as British yeast is as good as Japanese yeast.

Any nation can make Pizza crust...They just have to have the Dough to pay for it.
.

In other words, it wouldn't have ..... risen.

Or, like your Pizza story...Which was overproofed... it rose and fell flat.

Now, Mr. Takao, my title of ' Engineer ' is NOT ' Self Professed ' - it was printed on my business cards
going as far back as 1980 ( Before that my titles were ' Chemist ' and ' Quality Control Lab Manager '. And,
in my experience as a Process Engineer and Quality Engineer, I have often been responsible for ensuring
the correct manufacturing of High Technology products in fabrication facilities that employed hundreds
of people who often had nothing more than a high school diploma, and oftentimes did not even possess
that ! In effect, I had to do the thinking, planning, and managing for them.

Yet, you forgot what kind of yeast you used in your pizza...

That's the way it works in Industry, and to a large extent, the Military. A few bright geniuses directing
a mob of people with average or below average IQs to carry out a program.

Mmmmm...That explains why Germany lost two World Wars, and more businesses fail rather than succeed....The wrong people are running the show.

So, you can have 400,000 employees of NASA and it's subcontractors, but without the guiding light
of a few VERY smart people, they will turn out nothing but rockets that can't fly. Like the SLS and
the Artemis. Billions spent, and nothing to show for it but crappy hardware that doesn't work.

Smart? We spent billions putting a man on the moon...all for national pride/bragging rights. That is not very smart in my book, but a waste of money.

Paul, you also forget that NASA still had your fabled "guiding light", von Braun, when NASA went bust in 1970. Once NASA/von Braun put a man on the moon, the light quickly waned. Missions were canceled as funding was drastically cut. The shiny new toy quickly became yesterday's news. This was well before SLS & Artemis. Even before the failed shuttle program and the too stupidly expensive Aries.

On the other hand, if you have a few Geniuses, like Elon Musk, who was born in South Africa, you
can launch satellites every few days with re-usable rockets, send people to the ISS, and even be
in position to take over the Lunar Program and kick NASA to the curb.

Your overproofing again Paul, your dough is falling flat again.

Musk's genius is not scientific, but for business. NASA is a political entity dependent on government funding.

Reusable rockets? NASA has had them for decades.

NASA had been kicked to the curb with their grossly overpriced Aires. Which is why the came up with the kludge of SLS and the later Artemis - using the leftover bits and pieces of the shuttle program - to keep costs low enough for the government to keep footing the bill.

P.S. - how many European Scientists were responsible for the Manhattan Project, starting with
that first letter to President Roosevelt, signed by, among others, a German named Einstein...

How many European nations produced a functioning atomic weapon?

How many non-European nations have produced a functioning atomic bomb?



Cheers.

[paulrward]

Hello All :

To Mr. Takao :

First, I have always used Fleischmann's . No particular reason, just the convenience of the little
packets ...... And I didn't forget what type of Yeast i use, I simply didn't mention it. You really need
to learn how to read other people's postings more carefully.


Yes, any nation's yeast is as good as another's. However, if the yeast has gone bad, it will not
activate in the warm water and sugar solution.

Now, the United States had a fairly good packet of Yeast, named Robert Goddard. Unfortunately,
he died on August 10, 1945. Which left the U.S.A. with a whole lot of dough, and no yeast.....
So, we borrowed some packets of yeast from the Germans, which we carefully Paperclipped together,
and proceeded to make some Pizzas.

And, Mr. Takao, any nation can make Pizza - they just need Dough ( Flour and Water ) , and ....... Yeast.

Mmmmm...That explains why Germany lost two World Wars, and more
businesses fail rather than succeed....The wrong people are running the show.

Hmmmmm.... Kaiser Wilhelm II and Adolph Hitler........ The wrong people running the show......
How could I have phrased it better ?.......... Nope, that sums it up pretty accurately. Good catch,
Mr. Takao. You just figured out why Germany lost two World Wars. They had the wrong leaders !

Smart? We spent billions putting a man on the moon...all for national
pride/bragging rights. That is not very smart in my book, but a waste of money.

The Integrated Circuit. High Speed Digital Telecommunications. The Internet. Huge advances in
Medical Telemetry Technology. And untold other advances. It was estimated by some Stanford
Economists that for every dollar spent to go to the Moon, the United States reaped ten dollars in
technology 'Spin-offs', which would never have happened without John Kennedy saying,
" WE CHOOSE TO GO TO THE MOON....... WE CHOOSE TO GO TO THE MOON, AND DO THE OTHER
THINGS, NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE EASY, BUT BECAUSE THEY ARE HARD ! "


And the Stars and Stripes on the Moon. In the words of a series of Credit Card television commercials,
That was PRICELESS !


Putting a man on the Moon was done for less than 30 Billion Dollars. The United States squandered
nearly 170 Billion ( and 58,000 lives ) in the massive shitshow called the Viet Nam War.

Mr. Takao, You tell me: Which was a better investment ?

NASA still had your fabled "guiding light", von Braun, when NASA went bust in 1970.

The United States continued to put men on the Moon until 1973, the year that Von Braun was diagnosed
with inoperable cancer. The entire Space Program became a victim of Richard Nixon's inability to see
beyond the end of his own prepuce, and the whole Watergate scandal. ( Spiro Agnew had been a great
proponent of NASA, and his disgrace led to the Agency's being put on the back burner while Nixon
unsuccessfully fought off his political opponents.)

All of which is something that many people, including myself, have always looked upon as an opportunity
lost. Had the U.S. pushed onwards through the 1970s and 80s, we could have put a colony on Mars by
now. The technology was there, just not the national will. Too many people like Mr. Takao, unable to
see the future lies in outer space.....

How many European nations produced a functioning atomic weapon?
How many non-European nations have produced a functioning atomic bomb?

How many of them produced an atomic bomb BEFORE the expatriate European Scientists did it in 1945 ?
In point of fact, in 1944, only TWO nations were actively researching Atomic Power with a budget
sufficient to make real discoveries. One was the United States. Mr. Takao, want to guess which the
other one was..... ?

By 1908, lots of people were building airplanes. But the Wright Brothers first flew ( badly ) in 1903.
Copying is easy. Inventing is hard. I have worked with Geniuses who invented things. I am NOT one
of them. But, I can recognize Genius when I see it, or read it. And I can recognize third rate minds
when I read them, too.




Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward

[T. A. Gardner]

I see this very differently.

Von Braun was a world-class salesman. He could sell snowballs to Eskimos in the middle of winter. As an engineer, he was nothing special.

With respect to the US space program, he was the point man selling the program.

Redstone was used in the Mercury series of manned flights because it was reliable, not because the German engineers at Redstone arsenal (where the ex-Paperclip ones were) were particularly brilliant. They used a lot of US developed technology in that program.

Then the US went to Gemini, where totally non-Paperclip / German technology prevailed with Atlas and Titan missiles that were USAF designs and outside the purview of the Paperclip scientists.

Then you look at Saturn for the moon shots. The Germans at Redstone appear to be major players once again, but they design a very conservative rocket using in many cases outdated technology (like failing to use integral fuel tanks) and everything on the missile is US engineered technology borrowed to make it work. They abandon the weird rotational systems they came up with for the Jupiter missiles that precede Saturn.

Von Braun's genius was truly in sales, not engineering. I don't fault him for a second on that. You need salesmen that are knowledgeable in their product. The German engineers did contribute to the US programs, but their contributions were not so great that the US couldn't have done everything they did without them.

The Soviets were in a worse position having lost years of research due to the war. They used German help to catch up. Without it, they would have been looking at another decade or two to fully catch up.

The Chinese got lucky. They were way behind. Their missile and rocketry program benefited from US racism and stupidity. One of the most brilliant US rocket scientists of the 1940's and 50's was Qian Xusen at Cal Tech (GALCIT / JPL). In the 50's the Red scare got him under what amounted to house arrest and then deported to China.
There, he started the Chinese Communist rocketry / missile development program and he recruited many other Chinese family members and relations in the US to come and help. His efforts were sufficiently great in China he was awarded special status and the highest honors.
While he was in the US, he made great strides forward in US programs that he participated in.

[Takao]

First, I have always used Fleischmann's . No particular reason, just the convenience of the little
packets ...... And I didn't forget what type of Yeast i use, I simply didn't mention it. You really need
to learn how to read other people's postings more carefully.

I read your post quite carefully. You really need to learn how to write more detailed posts...I was under the impression that engineers were all about details. Apparently not.

Yes, any nation's yeast is as good as another's. However, if the yeast has gone bad, it will not
activate in the warm water and sugar solution.

That is why bakers always test their yeast first, to make sure it has not gone bad.

And, Mr. Takao, any nation can make Pizza - they just need Dough ( Flour and Water ) , and ....... Yeast.

And any baker will tell you that you can make Pizza without yeast.

The Integrated Circuit. High Speed Digital Telecommunications. The Internet. Huge advances in
Medical Telemetry Technology. And untold other advances.

Integrated Circuit? Was invented before the Apollo program. While, the Apollo program was the largest consumer of integrated circuits, they were not invented for the program.

High Speed Digital Communications? We had that already.

The Internet? 2 years after we landed on the moon.

Medical Telemetry Technology? 1949...Were we even thinking of Apollo in 1949?

What about Tang & Velcro??? Oh, yeah NASA was not responsible for them either.

Here is one for you...Cordless tools. Rather benign & not very exciting though.

It was estimated by some Stanford
Economists that for every dollar spent to go to the Moon, the United States reaped ten dollars in
technology 'Spin-offs',

Drinking the Kool Aid with your Pizza?
Sounds good...Until you realize that NASA is just "spinning" the numbers. They did this with the Space Shuttle & when they tried jumpstarting NASA under Bush II. I don't have the Apollo figures handy, but do have the Shuttle numbers.

You tell the "mark" or "sucker"(aka The public) that they got a fabulous return on their "investment." The "catch" is to only "spin" the R&D numbers. For instance, R&D on the shuttle was around $2.5 Billion USD. The "spin-off" was $5 Billion USD. I know what your saying...2 for 1? Not 10 for 1...I know, right. But wait, IT GET'S WORSE! NASA is only "spinning" the R&D costs ($2.5 billion), the Shuttle program cost over $50 Billion USD.
So, we spent 50 Billion USD on the Shuttle, and only got back $5 Billion.

Now, I will make you a deal Mr. Ward. You give me $50,000 USD, and I will give you back $5,000 USD.
According to you and your Economists, this is fair, equitable, and just.

which would never have happened without John Kennedy saying,
" WE CHOOSE TO GO TO THE MOON....... WE CHOOSE TO GO TO THE MOON, AND DO THE OTHER
THINGS, NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE EASY, BUT BECAUSE THEY ARE HARD ! "

Best con man ever...

And the Stars and Stripes on the Moon. In the words of a series of Credit Card television commercials,
That was PRICELESS !

Or more realistically...WORTHLESS.

Putting a man on the Moon was done for less than 30 Billion Dollars. The United States squandered
nearly 170 Billion ( and 58,000 lives ) in the massive shitshow called the Viet Nam War.

Mr. Takao, You tell me: Which was a better investment ?

If you believe the NASA "spin" on "spin-offs"...Then you should believe that we won the Vietnam War.

The United States continued to put men on the Moon until 1973, the year that Von Braun was diagnosed
with inoperable cancer.

Didn't von Braun leave in NASA 1972...Rat from a sinking ship.

The entire Space Program became a victim of Richard Nixon's inability to see
beyond the end of his own prepuce, and the whole Watergate scandal. ( Spiro Agnew had been a great
proponent of NASA, and his disgrace led to the Agency's being put on the back burner while Nixon
unsuccessfully fought off his political opponents.)

Basically, NASA went bust, because putting a man on the moon was all we could afford.

All of which is something that many people, including myself, have always looked upon as an opportunity
lost. Had the U.S. pushed onwards through the 1970s and 80s, we could have put a colony on Mars by
now. The technology was there, just not the national will. Too many people like Mr. Takao, unable to
see the future lies in outer space.....

Oh, the future does lie in outer space...Just not our generation's future.

[paulrward]

Hello All ;

Arguing with someone who doesn't see the value of the U.S. Space Program is like arguing with someone
who believes that the Earth is Flat.... You get nowhere, because they cannot conceive of the essential
concepts that are under discussion.

The cost of sending men to the moon was 30 billion dollars. The population of the United States in 1964
was about 200 million. Which means, that on average for the ten years of the Mercury-Gemini-Apollo
program, each person in the U.S. had to fork over $ 150.00 - or about $ 15.00 per year. Or, right around
$ 1.50 per month.

This is what we got for it.

Mr Takaos lack of Vision.jpg

During that same period, we were forking over nearly six times that amount, or $ 9.00 per month, to fund
the VietNam War.

This is what we got for it.

Mr. Takaos lack of vsion 2.jpg

In 1969, I was proud of one of them, and ashamed of the other. Fifty Three years later, I am still proud
of going to the moon. Mr. Takao: Are you proud of Viet Nam ?


Mr. Takao, I WORKED IN THE SEMICONDUCTOR INDUSTRY ! I know how much the Space Program pushed
American Technology ahead of the rest of the world. Just as WW 2 took the aviation industry to the edge
of the speed of sound and the upper stratosphere. the Space Race took our level of technology decades
ahead of where it would have been without it.


A number of years ago, I had emergency surgery. My blood pressure and blood flow were monitored by
wireless doppler sensors that detected I was hemorhaging in time for the surgeons to locate the source,
and tie it off. Without those sensors, I might have died.

Those sensors were developed by the Aerospace industry for NASA to monitor propellant and oxidiser flows
into the Rocket Engines of the Saturn Rockets.

No Lunar Program, No Saturn Rocket.

No Saturn Rocket, No Wireless Doppler Sensors.

No Wireless Doppler Sensors. No..... ME !


I have been critical of the Space Shuttle. But, it did allow us to loft the Hubble Space Telescope into orbit,
which has allowed us to see Dust Storms on Mars, the Impact of a Comet on Jupiter ( which confirmed the
concept of the Dinosaur Extinction Event ) and made it possible to locate planets, not just out beyond the
orbit of Pluto, but orbiting other stars as well.

Huble New Stars.jpg

Mr. Takao, this is an image taken by the Hubble Space Telescope of a region in our Galaxy where new stars
are being born. This is literally the moment of creation when a new Star System, like our own, is coming
into existance.

How much is THIS photograph worth to you ? If you think this is USELESS..... then you are the living
example of Oscar Wilde's statement that, " A Fool is a man who knows the Price of Everything, and the
Value of Nothing ! "

Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward

[At ease]

We went to the moon almost entirely, if not entirely, on US engineering and invention too.

See my post #30 where Dr. von Braun is feted as someone extremely talented.


viewtopic.php?p=2428957#p2428957

The US scientific/rocketry community seemed to think it was a fitting thing to do.

AND YOU CANNOT DENY IT.

[paulrward]

Hello All ;

To Mr. Gardner :

In fact, the Large Saturn Rocket ( The Moon Rocket ) was originally intended to have four of the F-1
Rocket engines on the first stage ( S-1C). The four engines were to be attached to the structure by
a pair of circumferential thrust rings. However, von Braun looked at that design, and insisted that
the structure be ' stiffened ' by adding an ' X ' shaped cross member that spanned the base of the
booster. Some in the program felt it was unnecessary, but it was included in the design.

Then problems arose: The Apollo Command Module, the Service Module, and the Lunar Module all
began experiencing ' weight creep ' that is, their design weights steadily increased as time passed.
Suddenly, the ' All-Up ' weight of a lunar mission exceeded the design thrust of the four engined
Saturn - it simply would not get into space at those weights.

Fortunately, the solution was quite easy: von Braun simply proposed that a FIFTH F-1 engine be
added to the S-1C, and that it could be attached in the center of the Cross Brace ! With only
minor redesign, the Saturn Rocket became the Saturn V rocket that shook the earth and made
history from December 1968 to 1973, when it put Skylab into orbit. And all because of von Braun's
knowledge, experience, and intuition as an Engineer and Rocket Scientist......

I have read reports that state that, even though NASA has an example of the Saturn V rocket on
display, that NASA could NOT duplicate the Saturn V rocket nearly five decades after it last flew.
I wonder: If von Braun were still alive, would that be true ? Or would he simply gather his team
of Germans, have them all roll up their sleeves, pull their sliderules out of their leather cases, and
get that project moving !

Von Braun.jpg

Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward

[Takao]

In fact, the Large Saturn Rocket ( The Moon Rocket ) was originally intended to have four of the F-1
Rocket engines on the first stage ( S-1C). The four engines were to be attached to the structure by
a pair of circumferential thrust rings. However, von Braun looked at that design, and insisted that
the structure be ' stiffened ' by adding an ' X ' shaped cross member that spanned the base of the
booster. Some in the program felt it was unnecessary, but it was included in the design.

Well, that is "spinning" the truth to benefit your argument.

In fact, von Braun's original Saturn moon rocket design was the Saturn C-3, with only 2 F-1 engines. This was because he favored the Earth Orbit Rendezvous to get to the moon. Also, this design was later modified to 5 F-1 engines. However, the von Braun group proposed several Saturn designs after NASA decided on the Lunar Orbit Rendezvous. They were the C-4(4 F-1 engines), the C-4B (5 F-1 engines), and the C-5(5 F-1 engines). The competing Nova design was dropped because it could not be built in existing facilities, while the Saturn C-4, C-4B, and C-5 could. The C-5 design was chosen because of it's reserve lifting capacity for future mission possibilities.

Then problems arose: The Apollo Command Module, the Service Module, and the Lunar Module all
began experiencing ' weight creep ' that is, their design weights steadily increased as time passed.
Suddenly, the ' All-Up ' weight of a lunar mission exceeded the design thrust of the four engined
Saturn - it simply would not get into space at those weights.

Finally, Mr. Ward gives us a truthful statement..
Kudos Mr. Ward.

Fortunately, the solution was quite easy: von Braun simply proposed that a FIFTH F-1 engine be
added to the S-1C, and that it could be attached in the center of the Cross Brace ! With only
minor redesign, the Saturn Rocket became the Saturn V rocket that shook the earth and made
history from December 1968 to 1973, when it put Skylab into orbit. And all because of von Braun's
knowledge, experience, and intuition as an Engineer and Rocket Scientist......

And then Mr. Ward blows it, by deciding that "spinning" the truth is much easier the telling the truth.

Actually, Mr. Ward, the lift capacity actually DROPPED by adding the 5th F-1...From 218,000 pounds with 4 engines(C-4) to 209,000 pounds with 5 engines(C-4B). Mr. Ward, as a self-proclaimed engineer, do you seriously expect us to believe that 209,000 is greater than 218,000? Of course, the 5-engined C-5 design that was selected had a lift capacity of 260,000 pounds, thanks to it's much greater fuel capacity. This was accomplished by lengthening the first stage by just over 30 feet.

Further Mr. Ward, your "weight creep" was solved by increasing the fuel load of the second stage over the original C-5 design, and expanding the diameter of the third stage by 3 feet.

I have read reports that state that, even though NASA has an example of the Saturn V rocket on
display,

Actually, there are 3, however 1 is composed of all test stages, and the other two have been "frakensteined"(composed of various actual Saturn Vs. But, SA-514 & SA 515 have all 3 of their stages preserved, although neither are 1 complete rocket.

that NASA could NOT duplicate the Saturn V rocket nearly five decades after it last flew.

Why would they want to?
The technology is 60 years old. Nothing exists to construct all the old parts. The F-1 engines were to have been replaced with the F-1A engines had the program continued. The list goes on and on...

I wonder: If von Braun were still alive, would that be true ? Or would he simply gather his team
of Germans, have them all roll up their sleeves, pull their sliderules out of their leather cases, and
get that project moving !

Only if he was a dumb engineer...A smart scientist would just copy the blueprints off the microfilm they are stored on.

Work smarter, not harder.

[paulrward]

Hello All ;

This is where my first semester of Engineering Physics, taken nearly 50 years ago, is finally paying off.....

Mr. Takao incorrectly stated :

Actually, Mr. Ward, the lift capacity actually DROPPED by adding the 5th F-1...From
218,000 pounds with 4 engines(C-4) to 209,000 pounds with 5 engines(C-4B). Mr. Ward, as a
self-proclaimed engineer, do you seriously expect us to believe that 209,000 is greater than
218,000? Of course, the 5-engined C-5 design that was selected had a lift capacity of 260,000
pounds, thanks to it's much greater fuel capacity. This was accomplished by lengthening the
first stage by just over 30 feet.

If you took the first stage of the four engine Saturn 4, and added a fifth engine, you would have 25 % more
thrust, and thus 25% more liftoff capacity. However, you would also be burning the fuel at a rate 25 %
FASTER ! Now, as we all know, F = M x A . But, lifting a load into orbit isnt a matter of Force, it is a matter
of WORK - and Work is defined as W = F x S, or Force times Displacement in space.

If you have more thrust, but burn the fuel faster, you will be running the engines for a shorter time, and
thus, will be capable only doing the exact same amount of WORK - the solution being to increase the fuel
supply, giving you a longer burn time, and getting you to orbit.

In his screed, Mr. Takao admits that the alteration of the Saturn 4 into the Saturn 5 with the extra engine
and the stretched tanks, increased the lifting capacity from 218,000 pounds to 260,000 pounds. And what
did they use that extra lift for ?

Further Mr. Ward, your "weight creep" was solved by increasing the fuel load of the
second stage over the original C-5 design, and expanding the diameter of the third stage by
3 feet.

So now, because you are lifting more weight in terms of payload with the 25 % more thrust, you can expand
the second stage fuel load, allowing it to burn you almost all the way into orbit, and you can expand the
third stage, allowing it both store the Lunar Module, and also have enough fuel to to allow you to complete
your orbital burns, circularize your orbit if necessary, and do the TLI Burn to send you to the moon.

All this was possible because von Braun had the experience with rockets that dated back to the 1930s. He
was an old fashioned ' Suspenders and Belt ' Engineer, and he insisted on that cross member in the design
work, which proved crucial in ' stretching ' the Saturn 4 design into the Saturn 5.


Finally, Mr. Takao, as for the Saturn V microfilms..... A number people have gone to the Marshall Space
Center, as well as other repositories, to examine those microfilms. They are NOT complete. A lot of
stuff was in the hands of contractors, who, after the wind-down of the Saturn Program, were not being
paid by NASA to archive the blueprints, design specs, and test results, and so they simply.... threw them
away.

This was highlighted right after the Challenger Disaster, when a company developed the idea to building
a rocket with two F-1 engines that would have been capable of lofting 85,000 pounds into orbit. ( I know
this because Pacific American Launch Systems in Redwood City, Calif., just up the road from where I lived
in Silicon Valley, was doing this work, and one of my college classmates, who is still a close friend, was
part of the project. ) He stated that there were large amounts of documentation at Marshall, as well
as at Rocketdyne, and in Atlanta, but that there were huge gaps in the documentation, and apparently'
a lot of it had just been discarded in the late 1970s.


So, Mr Takao, Work Smarter, Not Harder, Because Work Will Set You Free !


Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward

[At ease]

So it seems that Paul R. Ward is akin to a rocket scientist.

Well done.

It is a pleasure to read your posts.

@ Takao, I said upthread (posts 40 & 46)that you should desist from posting, to limit embarrassment to yourself.

Paul R. Ward's replies to your posts reinforce my suggestion.

[T. A. Gardner]

That Von Braun and the paperclip scientists / engineers played a significant role in the US civil space program in no way--ZERO--indicates that the US couldn't have managed these programs without them.

The Saturn V was largely built using non-German engineered technology designed and manufactured by US companies from US engineering. It also wasn't the only large missile / rocket in existence. Atlas, Titan, for example were wholly US designs. Jupiter was a complement of Thor. So, there were plenty of US designs that didn't rely on German engineering to function.

This again argues for against the original thesis of this thread: That German engineering coming out of WW 2 made a significant and irreplaceable contribution to Western technology advancement. It didn't. It contributed, but it didn't form the basis or focus of virtually any Western technologies.

[paulrward]

Hello All ;

Mr. Gardner stated :

That Von Braun and the paperclip scientists / engineers played a significant
role in the US civil space program in no way--ZERO--indicates that the US couldn't
have managed these programs without them.

In 1945, there were three great leaders in Rocket Technology: von Braun, Goddard, and Korolyev.

Goddard died. But, the United States ' Paperclipped ' von Braun. As a result, the U.S. got the
Redstone, Jupiter, Jupiter C, Juno , Saturn 1 and 1B and Saturn V.

As for the statement:

The Saturn V was largely built using non-German engineered technology designed
and manufactured by US companies from US engineering.

According to NASA,

Accordingly, von Braun became director of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center and the chief architect
of the Saturn V launch vehicle, the superbooster that would propel Americans to the Moon.

Atlas, Titan, for example were wholly US designs. Jupiter was a complement
of Thor.

Atlas and Thor had protracted developments, with failure after failure. On the other hand, Redstone
was a success from the first launch, and the decision to order both missiles was done simply to avoid
layoffs at a major contractor. Thor continued to have issues throughout it's service life, and was largely
based in foreign countries, like Britain and Turkey. This was so the pad explosions wouldn't endanger
Americans......

So, there were plenty of US designs that didn't rely on German engineering
to function.

Compare the long litany of pad explosions of Thor, Atlas, and Titan with the service tests and career of
the Redstones and Saturns. The Redstone went smoothly into service, and was reliable enough that NASA,
unwilling to risk an Astronaut's life on the early Atlas rocket, sent the first two Americans into space on
Redstones.

The Saturn 1 had TEN successful launches with ZERO failures, the Saturn !B had NINE successful
launches with ZERO failures, and the Saturn V had THIRTEEN successful launches with ONE failure of the
second stage.

Thats ONE failure in THIRTY TWO LAUNCHES ! Compare that with the endless footage of Atlases , Titans,
and Thors blowing up on the pad or right after liftoff! In fact, SIX out of the first TEN Thor launches blew up !

Remember, the United States couldn't even launch it's first satellite until, after several public failures, in
desperation, they called in von Braun and his team, and they successfully launched Explorer 1. As one
person put it, " If at first you don't succeed, CALL IN THE GERMANS ! "


Now, were the Germans irreplaceable ? Let's look at the Soviet program. The Soviets used
their German Rocket Scientists to help them develop the R-7 rocket, and then sent them home. The R-7
IS THE ONLY ROCKET THE SOVIETS HAVE EVER MAN RATED ! That's right, all of their home brewed rockets
have such a high failure rate than they have NEVER entrusted a live crew to them - only satellites and
animals !

The Proton rocket had a long, dismal record of failures. In fact, it was a last minute failure of a Proton
Rocket that prevented the Soviets from launching a manned Zond Spacecraft in a Lunar Orbital Mission
in December, 1968. Apollo 8 was put together at the last minute in a desperate attempt to keep up. When
the Proton failed, the United States became the first nation on Earth to send humans to another world.

The next Soviet Rocket was the N-1, or Lenin, which was launched Four times in 1969-1972, and the results
were two craters at the launch pads and two down range debris fields. It was the pad explosion of an
N-1 in July, 1969, that caused the failure of the second attempt to launch a manned Zond to the Moon,
and carry out a faked moon landing to beat the United States by a few days.

But, because both the Proton and the N-1 had flawed engineering, the entire Soviet Space Program went
off the rails.

" The Eagle has Landed ! "


And that's what the Germans gave the United States. Success. Fast developments cycles. And the
accomplishment of what many thought was an impossible dream in less than ten years.

Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward