No German scientists/technology for the Wallies - impact on the Cold War?

[Carl Schwamberger]

A close look at the existing Federal highways system initiated in the 1920s & state of local development shows highway design in the US was headed in the same direction. The obstacle was not concept or engineering but a fiscally conservative federal legislature that was allergic to infrastructure spending. Ike was not part of that crowd. His contribution was the socialist (communist?) idea that the Federal government ought to fund programs that benefitted the nation in general. In this he was backed by the automobile industry, who as in the 1920s lobbied strongly for spending on road improvement. Truman may very well have responded the same way to the automotive/highway lobby. A Taft presidency may have left us with a witches brew of 48 state highway programs following incompatible routes and built to uneven standards.

Actually, Eisenhower sold the interstate highway system as a defense need.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_A ... ct_of_1956

That made building these highways a matter of national defense, not just some federal infrastructure program. That was much easier to sell to Congress at the time.

The Wiki article is part myth & short on substance. 'Modernizing' the current Federal highway standards was officially initiated 1939, but underfunded until the 1950s.

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/interstate/interstatemyths.cfm

Prior to that projects like the Lincoln Highway were being sold as projects that would "open up the country" to motor vehicle travel and a hard sell due to the cost with little visible return.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_of_ ... ln_Highway

The Lincoln Highway initiated in 1913 was one of the precursors to the larger network of Federally planned & financed highways. The emergence of that system was gradual, with the establishment of a coherent numbering system circa 1925 marking the steady emergence of a organized system of national roads.

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/highwayhistory/us1.cfm

[T. A. Gardner]

Of course, Wiki isn't the best source. I posted it simply because it's a quick one that makes a good starting point to find out more.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Diverging into a discussion of sources still leaves us with the point the US was headed towards a high speed/capacity highway system with or without German technology.

[EKB]

I've never driven on Germany's Autobahn but, it's my understanding that curves in the road are banked like a racetrack.

I've driven through banked turns on U.S. bridges, ramps and tunnels. But I can't remember the last time I saw a banked curve on open roads. I have a 2017 Honda Accord Coupe with a 6-speed manual and lowered suspension. The car is dropped 1.5 inches and handles nicely in sharp curves, with no body roll. Going fast on the Autobahn is on my bucket list.

[Carl Schwamberger]

I've driven through banked turns on U.S. bridges, ramps and tunnels. But I can't remember the last time I saw a banked curve on open roads. ...

The banks are there, but not a lot of them on the interstates. Most of those were laid out to avoid tight curves requiring banks. State Road 25 between lafayette & Logansport is a example pf a road with banked curves, shallow banks. & a small number of moderate banks. Its all curves with a handful of straightaways, none reaching three kilometers. Unfortunately there are also 19 bridges on this stretch, all of which have ice in any combination of cold and wet.

[T. A. Gardner]

Getting back to the topic at hand, take a project like Bumblebee. This was a USN project to develop a long-range SAM to engage bombers before they could launch guided weapons like the Hs 293 or a Fritz X on ships.
The US started this project in July 1944 and by July 1945 were testing supersonic ramjet missiles without guidance to get the best missile design. They were concurrently developing better solid fuel boosters--using solid rocket fuels well in advance of anything the Germans had along with better cross section design of the propellant to give a more even burn rate and thrust. They also had a dedicated program to produce a viable guidance system. Thousands of engineers, scientists, technicians, and workers were involved in this one program. It almost on its own dwarfs the whole German Peenemunde program. A supersonic wind tunnel and whole engineering and scientific site was built from scratch in Texas. Firing sites for test missiles were built in New Jersey and North Carolina. Several major aircraft manufacturers were involved in the airframes. Other major research and production was carried out by universities and corporations across the US.
The whole of this program makes the whole German SAM program look almost like an amateurish joke. Worse for the German technological superiority myth was that it was only one of many such SAM programs the US was moving forward on. There was GAPA, NIKE, and several others that were interim programs to get something in service quickly even if it was marginal to fill the gap until a proper weapon came available.
For example, the USN had the KAN Little Joe missile program going. It's a rough equivalent of Enzian. It was intended as a quick stop-gap missile not as an end product.

[At ease]

Getting back to the topic at hand, take a project like Bumblebee. This was a USN project to develop a long-range SAM to engage bombers before they could launch guided weapons like the Hs 293 or a Fritz X on ships.
The US started this project in July 1944 and by July 1945 were testing supersonic ramjet missiles without guidance to get the best missile design. They were concurrently developing better solid fuel boosters--using solid rocket fuels well in advance of anything the Germans had along with better cross section design of the propellant to give a more even burn rate and thrust. They also had a dedicated program to produce a viable guidance system. Thousands of engineers, scientists, technicians, and workers were involved in this one program. It almost on its own dwarfs the whole German Peenemunde program. A supersonic wind tunnel and whole engineering and scientific site was built from scratch in Texas. Firing sites for test missiles were built in New Jersey and North Carolina. Several major aircraft manufacturers were involved in the airframes. Other major research and production was carried out by universities and corporations across the US.
The whole of this program makes the whole German SAM program look almost like an amateurish joke. Worse for the German technological superiority myth was that it was only one of many such SAM programs the US was moving forward on. There was GAPA, NIKE, and several others that were interim programs to get something in service quickly even if it was marginal to fill the gap until a proper weapon came available.
For example, the USN had the KAN Little Joe missile program going. It's a rough equivalent of Enzian. It was intended as a quick stop-gap missile not as an end product.

This is just another of many posts where the German contribution to rocketry is denigrated by T.A. Gardner.

For a treatment of how well some particular German scientists were regarded by some influential "luminaries" and commentators of the US space program, see:

viewtopic.php?p=2427798#p2427798

It would be instructive to pay attention to the comments in that post made by C. Stark Draper, a "heavyweight" in the field, who has been fulsome of his praise for Werner von Braun, especially in his and his team's contribution to guidance systems that T.A.Gardner seems to believe was a US preserve.

Draper's comments in the post that I linked to very effectively suggests how highly he thought of the German contribution to rocket guidance system development, and disputes the negative suggestion by T.A.G. in his earlier post(and in many other places/forums).

C. Stark Draper, a leading postwar specialist in the field of guidance and
control,, acknowledged the contributions of the von Braun team in no
uncertain terms. "Beyond doubt," he declared, credit for the realization
of inertial guidance belongs to the Peenemuende group of German
scientists who developed the V-2 ballistic rocket missile. (16)

Charles Stark "Doc" Draper (October 2, 1901 – July 25, 1987) was an American scientist and engineer, known as the "father of inertial navigation".[2] He was the founder and director of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Instrumentation Laboratory, later renamed the Charles Stark Draper Laboratory, which made the Apollo Moon landings possible through the Apollo Guidance Computer it designed for NASA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stark_Draper

[T. A. Gardner]

This is just another of many posts where the German contribution to rocketry is denigrated by T.A. Gardner.

For a treatment of how well some particular German scientists were regarded by some influential "luminaries" and commentators of the US space program, see:

viewtopic.php?p=2427798#p2427798

It would be instructive to pay attention to the comments in that post made by C. Stark Draper, a "heavyweight" in the field, who has been fulsome of his praise for Werner von Braun, especially in his and his team's contribution to guidance systems that T.A.Gardner seems to believe was a US preserve.

Draper's comments in the post that I linked to very effectively suggests how highly he thought of the German contribution to rocket guidance system development, and disputes the negative suggestion by T.A.G. in his earlier post(and in many other places/forums).

C. Stark Draper, a leading postwar specialist in the field of guidance and
control,, acknowledged the contributions of the von Braun team in no
uncertain terms. "Beyond doubt," he declared, credit for the realization
of inertial guidance belongs to the Peenemuende group of German
scientists who developed the V-2 ballistic rocket missile. (16)

Charles Stark "Doc" Draper (October 2, 1901 – July 25, 1987) was an American scientist and engineer, known as the "father of inertial navigation".[2] He was the founder and director of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Instrumentation Laboratory, later renamed the Charles Stark Draper Laboratory, which made the Apollo Moon landings possible through the Apollo Guidance Computer it designed for NASA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stark_Draper

Wiki?!

The above is just a version of the Nazi fanboi defense--The Germans were the bomb and did everything so much better.

Exactly which guidance systems did v. Braun contribute to other than possibly the V-2? He certainly had nothing to do with AZUSA, nor did any of the paperclip scientists / engineers. That was wholly a Hughes (Raytheon) development outside German assistance. Autonetics, a subsidiary of North American Aviation, developed most of the early US inertial navigation systems (N series) that didn't rely on anything wartime Germany did or on German engineering. They later developed solid state systems for ICBM's and other long-range missiles.
At Convair, Walter Schweidetzky, an ex-Paperclip engineer worked with others in developing these systems for that company.

MIT was not the sole source for such navigation systems, but one of many players.

I've never faulted v. Braun et al., for what contributions they did make, but I also have never slathered praise on him for being some paragon of modern rocketry. Instead, I've consistently said his greatest contribution was as a salesman. V. Braun sold the Nazis on the V-2 even as that missile was nearly worthless as a military weapon given its enormous cost. As I pointed out he sold Henkel on developing a rocket plane despite disastrous setbacks. He sold US politicians and NASA on going to the moon.
Visionaries and salesmen are an important part of getting things moving and done. I don't deny that. But the German wartime missile programs simply weren't all that good that they deserved copying or forming the basis for postwar developments. In most cases, they didn't. In some, parts of one program or another were adopted for continued development.

That's fair and accurate. Saying that the Germans were the be-all, end-all of rocketry and missiles in 1945 is just wrong. They weren't.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Anyone able to recommend some reliable sources for US rocketry development 1920-1945? For most folks the knowledge stops with a picture of Goddard standing aside one of his test rigs. The assortment of rocket weapons and test missiles of 1942-45 did not spring up overnight.

[T. A. Gardner]

Anyone able to recommend some reliable sources for US rocketry development 1920-1945? For most folks the knowledge stops with a picture of Goddard standing aside one of his test rigs. The assortment of rocket weapons and test missiles of 1942-45 did not spring up overnight.

There really aren't any good ones out there that I know of, and believe me, I've been looking. Instead, there's lots of obscure original documents and histories about specific projects or systems. The problem with Goddard is he was secretive about his developments. He didn't want to work with the government or military and only grudgingly did so during WW 2.

The US programs started up, more or less, simultaneously about 1938-39 and got little attention and even less funding. Once the war started, the US Army focused their rocket developments on solid fuel--like the Russians--because these had applications on the battlefield. The USAAF focused on JATO and RATO boosters initially. By 1943 they dabbled in rocket planes and rocket boosted conventional planes but never went beyond prototype testing.
The Navy initially looked at JATO / RATO too (both looked at both solid and liquid fuels), then started project Gorgon to develop a range of missiles for various applications using a variety of power sources.

For solid fuel rockets 'The Guy' was Jack Parsons. Largely self-taught, and colorful, Parsons developed some of the best solid fuels of the war anywhere. His company Aerojets formed with Theodore von Kármán was a major manufacturer of solid fuel rockets for the US military during WW 2. After the war it was a major source of solid fuel rockets and as Rocketdyne continued to produce these right up to today.

By late 1944 the Army and Navy had started SAM development programs--totally independent of anything Germany was doing. Both services recognized that AA artillery was being outranged by the speed and height aircraft could now fly at. The Navy also wanted to be able to reliably shoot down enemy aircraft at ranges where heavy AA guns on ships had little chance to do so.

The USAAF got into the SAM business only to have skin in the game versus the Army as they became a separate service. The USAAF's main focus prior to that split was studying ways to defend against ballistic missiles (programs Wizard and Thumper). These didn't progress beyond studies as the conclusions reached was with extant technology an effective defense wasn't possible.

Some interesting points:

Project Gorgon was the first to try to shootdown an aircraft with an air-to-air missile. The test failed, but it represented a first.
Project Bumblebee was firing ramjet missiles to 10+miles and 30,000 feet at Mach 1.5+ by the time Germany surrendered.
Western Electric and Douglas aircraft already had the Nike missile program underway with designs well advanced by May 1945.

[Carl Schwamberger]

The problem with Goddard is he was secretive about his developments. He didn't want to work with the government or military and only grudgingly did so during WW 2.

Possibly Goddard was among the many businessmen stiffed by Congress when war contracts were canceled 1919. In 1918 he had provided a small solid fuel rocket motor to the Army Ordnance Dept & assisted in attaching a rifle grenade warhead to it. It was to be launched from a bipod or shoulder mounted tube. Intended to be a cheap & light weight substitute for the French made 37mm infantry gun. As was standard practice then the manufacture put up the development cost himself & got paid only if the Army purchased the item. In 1919 Congress defunded all purchases leaving the bulk of US industry holding a empty bag. Ford, GM and others had millions in tooling and other set up costs that they ate since technically the production contracts were unfilled.

This bit the Roosevelt adiministration in 1940-1941 when US industry dragged its collective feet in taking on rearmament contracts. The Brits, French, Dutch and others paid up front for set up costs. Ford, Dupont, Henry Kaiser & the rest thought the War Department should do the same.

[T. A. Gardner]

The problem with Goddard is he was secretive about his developments. He didn't want to work with the government or military and only grudgingly did so during WW 2.

Possibly Goddard was among the many businessmen stiffed by Congress when war contracts were canceled 1919. In 1918 he had provided a small solid fuel rocket motor to the Army Ordnance Dept & assisted in attaching a rifle grenade warhead to it. It was to be launched from a bipod or shoulder mounted tube. Intended to be a cheap & light weight substitute for the French made 37mm infantry gun. As was standard practice then the manufacture put up the development cost himself & got paid only if the Army purchased the item. In 1919 Congress defunded all purchases leaving the bulk of US industry holding a empty bag. Ford, GM and others had millions in tooling and other set up costs that they ate since technically the production contracts were unfilled.

This bit the Roosevelt adiministration in 1940-1941 when US industry dragged its collective feet in taking on rearmament contracts. The Brits, French, Dutch and others paid up front for set up costs. Ford, Dupont, Henry Kaiser & the rest thought the War Department should do the same.

Goddard was thin skinned when it came to his research. Early on, he was derided and his work dismissed by colleges. That angered him so much he moved his operations and research to New Mexico where he could do everything pretty much in secret. His published works became the original "How to" manuals for the German and Russian rocketry programs using liquid fuels. Goddard was reluctant to cooperate with government and the military because he thought they'd just take his work without fair compensation and recognition, so his contributions during the war--up to his death--remained tenuous rather than substantial.

It would be von Karman and the "Suicide Squad" led by Jack Parsons, at Cal Tech that would become the leading solid fuel rocketry researchers in the US. Redstone Arsenal and the Navy Research Laboratory would become the liquid fuel go-to guys. The Navy program was originally at Dahlgren VA but soon moved to Cape May NJ. The USAAF opened their facility in this stuff first at Elgin AAF in Florida.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Goddard was reluctant to cooperate with government and the military because he thought they'd just take his work without fair compensation and recognition, so his contributions during the war--up to his death--remained tenuous rather than substantial.

A not uncommon attitude by many US businessmen 1939-1941. Klien in his 800 page primer on US industrial mobilization discusses the reluctance to take on War Department contracts during the early years. The British and French were paying substantial portions of the development and production costs up front. Congress was slow to alter the rules & allow worthwhile advance payments to cover the cost of build new production facilities and retooling existing up front.

[T. A. Gardner]

Goddard was reluctant to cooperate with government and the military because he thought they'd just take his work without fair compensation and recognition, so his contributions during the war--up to his death--remained tenuous rather than substantial.

A not uncommon attitude by many US businessmen 1939-1941. Klien in his 800 page primer on US industrial mobilization discusses the reluctance to take on War Department contracts during the early years. The British and French were paying substantial portions of the development and production costs up front. Congress was slow to alter the rules & allow worthwhile advance payments to cover the cost of build new production facilities and retooling existing up front.

Probably the worse two in that respect were Sewell Avery, CEO of Montgomery Ward, and hated FDR. The government forcibly removed him from his position.



The other was John Lewis head of the United Mine Workers. His strikes and unofficial "walkouts" by his union threatened to cripple US war industry with a coal shortage. FDR threatened to induct the miners into the military and to nationalize the mines for the duration. He was probably the worst, but by no means the only. Labor in general often saw the war as a chance to force higher and higher wages on employers.

[At ease]

At about 1:50 'till the end of the video there is a street parade in Huntsville after the Apollo 11 mission where Dr. von Braun is feted as a celebrity.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/hsvrevi ... 889471343/