Erie/Ireland invaded by Germany 1940

[sunbury2]

Reading through the thread I am puzzled at the reasons and excuses about Ireland, its food production, its population etc. To me its all utterly irrelevant.

The only reason to Invade Ireland is to close the Western Approaches to the British Ports. To base aircraft and Uboats to attack shipping and enforce a blockade. Britain in 1940 only kept around 3 months supplies of food and supplies, it was very vulnerable. It had a very weak Army after Dunkirk, it had only one semi decent bomber type (the Wellington) to counter attack at night, the Navy was stretched, so it could not mount a counter invasion. I stress the Germans do not need an indefinite campaign, just 3-6 months. Nor do they need large forces. Supply ships could bring in what was needed. The Germans historically did have success with blockade runners in the early years of the war (till mid 1941).

All Britain could do, would be to send its Battleships and Aircraft Carriers to try and fight convoys through (like Malta Convoys in 1942). However this in 1940 and the Navy must also keep a fleet in being to counter any Invasion from France. To fight in Ireland, it must strip its resources to counter a German Invasion from France.

German Aircraft would be very effective. Stressing this is 1940 to try and stop people wandering off topic. The RAF only has some long range Blenheim twin engine fighters to try and engage German bombers attacking convoys, the Blenheims are next to useless. The Fleet Air Arm aircraft are useless, so will pose no threat to modern German aircraft . The Royal Navy has weak anti aircraft guns and the Merchant navy has none. Air attacks on convoys will be deadly.

The funnel effect of British shipping heading for port means modern Me 109 and Me 110 fighters can also cover a lot of the Western Aapproaches. The RAF will have to rush modern fighters to the area to counter, again stripping away assets, but the geography of the area, they will be restricted by range. There is no radar system facing west, so something will need to be created with mobile sets, again depleting the main war effort facing France.

German Bombers can bomb and mine all the Ports at night in short shuttle flights to add to the woes. U Boats will be able to range far out into the Atlantic, but there is little need to. Every British ship must come past Ireland.

Perhaps German Service Ships may join in, meaning the Royal Navy must use its handful of Battleships to escort convoys at all times, just in case. Again, the British must defend and fight through convoys, yet keep a force ready to stop the real Invasion from France.

Had the Germans thought strategically and used Ireland in the summer of 1940, Britain could have been in real trouble. What happened after they won to the Irish is also largely irrelevant. Nazi Germanys war aims were always to the East, they would have put in a puppet government and attacked East knowing their western flank was secure.

[phylo_roadking]

Perhaps German Service Ships may join in, meaning the Royal Navy must use its handful of Battleships to escort convoys at all times, just in case. Again, the British must defend and fight through convoys, yet keep a force ready to stop the real Invasion from France.

It did. The RN had to toll off captial ships where possible to provide escort for major/important convoys across AND south through the Atlantic down to the Cape as long as there were German capital ships that could possibly sortie as convoy raiders.

German Aircraft would be very effective. Stressing this is 1940 to try and stop people wandering off topic. The RAF only has some long range Blenheim twin engine fighters to try and engage German bombers attacking convoys, the Blenheims are next to useless. The Fleet Air Arm aircraft are useless, so will pose no threat to modern German aircraft . The Royal Navy has weak anti aircraft guns and the Merchant navy has none. Air attacks on convoys will be deadly.

Actually - once they were IN the Western Approaches and the Irish Sea, they were also able to escort/patrol using Defiants - which were fine against unescorted German bombers. The three Defiant sqns had a relatively successful career in late 1940 into 1941 patrolling the Irish Sea from around Liverpool and the Isle of Man.

The only reason to Invade Ireland is to close the Western Approaches to the British Ports. To base aircraft and Uboats to attack shipping and enforce a blockade. Britain in 1940 only kept around 3 months supplies of food and supplies, it was very vulnerable. It had a very weak Army after Dunkirk, it had only one semi decent bomber type (the Wellington) to counter attack at night, the Navy was stretched, so it could not mount a counter invasion. I stress the Germans do not need an indefinite campaign, just 3-6 months. Nor do they need large forces. Supply ships could bring in what was needed. The Germans historically did have success with blockade runners in the early years of the war (till mid 1941).

Blockade runners, yes - but ENOUGH tonnage to keep an ongoing campaign on land supplied AND maintain an air campaign against the Western Approaches such as you describe? Fleming spends a few pages discussing the amount of tonnage required to keep a German campaign going on land in the UK...

A low-intensity campaign mounted over THAT timescale and supplied on an as-and-when basis will allow the British Army command ready for the purpose in NORTHERN Ireland to invade the Free State You do realise don't you how easy it would have been for the British to supply their campaign in Ireland?

The funnel effect of British shipping heading for port means modern Me 109 and Me 110 fighters can also cover a lot of the Western Aapproaches. The RAF will have to rush modern fighters to the area to counter, again stripping away assets, but the geography of the area, they will be restricted by range.

Take a look at the map - Cornwall, Devon...South Wales??? Even at the height of the BoB with none of them engaged, Fighter Command kept ten fighter squadrons in No. Ten Group, including the South-West of the country.

The funnel effect of British shipping heading for port means modern Me 109 and Me 110 fighters can also cover a lot of the Western Aapproaches. The RAF will have to rush modern fighters to the area to counter, again stripping away assets, but the geography of the area, they will be restricted by range. There is no radar system facing west, so something will need to be created with mobile sets, again depleting the main war effort facing France.

German Bombers can bomb and mine all the Ports at night in short shuttle flights to add to the woes. U Boats will be able to range far out into the Atlantic, but there is little need to. Every British ship must come past Ireland.

See also under NORTHERN Approaches

All Britain could do, would be to send its Battleships and Aircraft Carriers to try and fight convoys through (like Malta Convoys in 1942). However this in 1940 and the Navy must also keep a fleet in being to counter any Invasion from France. To fight in Ireland, it must strip its resources to counter a German Invasion from France.

Which is why the British Army developed an Army command in Ulster of 57,000 men, ready to invade Ireland if necessary. This Command was entirely separate from the Sealion defence plans for the south of England.

[LWD]

If Germany puts much in the way of cargo vessels or the KM for that matter into an invasion of Erie what does it have left for Sea Lion?

[phylo_roadking]

If Germany puts much in the way of cargo vessels or the KM for that matter into an invasion of Erie what does it have left for Sea Lion

That was actually one of the major issues with the plan; it was first decided that 15 cargo ships would be used...and this was soon reduced to eight IIRC. It really was going to be nothing more than a "raid" in size - but given that the Irish Defence Forces' regular troops at that time numbered only 8,500 men...!

It's also why a British force of just 5,000 men was expected to be sufficient to defeat it...AND the Irish if necessary...and THEN steamroller on and take back the three "Treaty" ports for the duration!

[BDV]

My gut reaction - immediate DOW from USofA.

The WASP base was by and large willing to go to war against Germany, and the reaction of the Irish-Catholic fraction of the US public (Poles were already incensed) would make the historical pro-war factions look like kumbaya-singing peaceniks.

[phylo_roadking]

BDV there's some discussion of this in Robert Fisk's In Time Of War...and it was expected that although the U.S. was willing to play a role in demilitarizing Eire...that was one of the offers put to De Valera, that the U.S. take over the defence of the entire island but he refused...the U.S. government wouldn't make a Declaration of War. At THAT point the Irish lobby would have seen an intervention in the war to protect Ireland as intervening on BRITAIN'S behalf

In the end, the Americans DID take over the "defence" of Ireland - when they arrived in Northern Ireland in 1942, the first U.S. troops in the ETO...they took over responsiblity for the defence of N.I. and by default the British plans for invading Eire! Although cooperation between North and South was somewhat easier from then on in defence matters...

[BDV]

But the outrage at the german action would have so high, that US would be swept in a wave of anti-german fervor. Subtleties a la "this is really on Britain's behalf", would not even register.

Also, this would have been the case regadless of whether at the time of this outrage Great Britain is occupied or not.

P.S.

Well, the exact same military action becomes either:

"Britain Strongarms Eire under Nazi Invasion Pretext"
or
"US Gallantly Comes to Eire's Defense against the Nazi Invader"

depending on the helmet-type sported by the non-Eire soldiers on Eire soil.

[phylo_roadking]

The helmet type???

Let's hope they invade in the right year then...!

Subtleties a la "this is really on Britain's behalf", would not even register.

With the Irish Catholic lobby? Seriously???

[MAMC]

Erie/Ireland invaded by Germany after Great Britian has fallen:
1) Would Dev Valera have continued to act as a Leader under occupation?
2) Would "Neutralty" have still been inforced? {Such as describing a man with a Irish surname lost on HMS Hood as death due to a boating accident!!}
3) Would the Irish Army under leaders like the "Boy Colonel" Michael Joe Costello could have had to wage a guerrilla battle against the Germans? How long would they have lasted?
4) Would Irish-Americans have volunteered to help defend Erie from the Germans?

Stick to facts, the Germans and British did not invade Ireland in the 1940's, the Germans waited until 2010 to successfully take over Ireland, I believe three men came ashore in a rubber dinghy. There was no sign of DeValera. The Germans were more than surprised that so few people spoke either Irish or English, one of then was heard to say "are ve in ze right country, check your maps".....

[BDV]

Subtleties a la "this is really on Britain's behalf", would not even register.

With the Irish Catholic lobby? Seriously???

Under this scenario Eire is INVADED by a bunch of hamfisted thugs! Protestant at that.

You propose that the Irish lobby in US would abide because "they ain't Brits"?!??

[phylo_roadking]

Yes. All I can say is...you need to live here to know

The Irish were fighting the British for their independence to one extent or another for nearly a thousand years. Religion didn`t always have as much to do with it as you think - the majority of the fighting against the British in1798 was by Ulster Protestants! But in WWI the IRA and Irish Nationlism had firmly allied itself with Germany, don`t forget...gunrunning to Ireland in 1917-8 by uboat? Sir Roger Casement being landed in Ireland by uboat? A sizeable percentage of Irish Nationalists saw Germany...ANY flavour of Germany...as their friend....

...NOT bcause the Germans were pro-Ireland, or the anti-Treaty sector of Irish Nationalism was pro-Nazi Germany... but yes, because the Germans were anti-British, anti- the Britain that in their eyes was still "occupying" the six counties of Northern Ireland

[BDV]

the majority of the fighting against the British in1798 was by Ulster Protestants!

Well it was YOU who brought up the catholic-ness of the Irish-lobby.

But in WWI the IRA and Irish Nationlism had firmly allied itself with Germany, don`t forget...gunrunning to Ireland in 1917-8 by uboat? Sir Roger Casement being landed in Ireland by uboat? A sizeable percentage of Irish Nationalists saw Germany...ANY flavour of Germany...as their friend....

Allies of convenience who were no more (Kaiser's empire). The links with Britain, like Finland's with Russia pre-Winter War (and even after) were much more nuanced than the white-black book of historical propaganda.

...NOT bcause the Germans were pro-Ireland, or the anti-Treaty sector of Irish Nationalism was pro-Nazi Germany... but yes, because the Germans were anti-British, anti- the Britain that in their eyes was still "occupying" the six counties of Northern Ireland

And that somehow is supposed to mean that Nazis would be allowed to stomp their jackboots over the precious Eire independence achieved with so much bloodshed and sacrifice?

[phylo_roadking]

the majority of the fighting against the British in1798 was by Ulster Protestants!

Well it was YOU who brought up the catholic-ness of the Irish-lobby.

My point was that despite the religion aspect having crept into Irish Nationalism during the 19th century...Irish nationalism wasn't a uniquely religious thing The Germans couldn't rely on prtraying themselves as liberating protestants!

Allies of convenience who were no more (Kaiser's empire).

...and cue the history of IRA cooperation with the Abwehr and Gestapo during WWII... The fact that they could go and ask for nazi support (Sean Russell's trip to Berlin to propose Plan Kathleen) shows that the IRA regarded Germany as an ally no matter what the flavour of government there.

The links with Britain, like Finland's with Russia pre-Winter War (and even after) were much more nuanced than the white-black book of historical propaganda.

You'd be amazed how black and white propaganda is in the island of Ireland No matter HOW nuanced it is at the same time

.

[PF]

Postscript:
Hitler meant to have all Europe under his iron fist-France would not only be humiliated and the British Empire impotent to stop him but Scandinavia, Western and eastern Europe would supply goods and materials and slaves for the German War Machine; Russia would lose the Ukraine; White Russia and the Western Half of Great Russia to be exploited and colonized by German Forever. Other countries such as the "neutral" Sweden; Switzerland and Turkey would co=operate/trade with Germany for no other reason than Germany controlled the markets they need to economically survive. Jews would have no place in this New Europe except for being dead....so why when the U.K. fell should A.H. respect the rights of Erie and leave her alone?

[LWD]

Yes. All I can say is...you need to live here to know

Actually if you are talking about the "Irish Catholic lobby" in the US you may need to be here rather than there. The attitudes, knowledge, and understandings of Irish Americans and Irish Nationals don't line up perfectly.

The Irish were fighting the British for their independence to one extent or another for nearly a thousand years. Religion didn`t always have as much to do with it as you think - the majority of the fighting against the British in1798 was by Ulster Protestants! But in WWI the IRA and Irish Nationlism had firmly allied itself with Germany, don`t forget...gunrunning to Ireland in 1917-8 by uboat? Sir Roger Casement being landed in Ireland by uboat? A sizeable percentage of Irish Nationalists saw Germany...ANY flavour of Germany...as their friend....

Yet didn't significant numbers of Irish desert from the Irish army to join the British army in WWII?

...NOT bcause the Germans were pro-Ireland, or the anti-Treaty sector of Irish Nationalism was pro-Nazi Germany... but yes, because the Germans were anti-British, anti- the Britain that in their eyes was still "occupying" the six counties of Northern Ireland

Certainly some had that feeling but how prevelant was it? Especially when compared to the opposition view point(s)?